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Joe Rogan Experience #1169 – Elon Musk

Joe Rogan:        Ha, ha, ha. Four, three, two, one. Boom. Thank you. Thanks for doing this, man. Really appreciate it.

Elon Musk:        Your welcome.

Joe Rogan:        It’s very good to meet you.

Elon Musk:        Nice to meet you too.

Joe Rogan:        And thanks for not lighting this place on fire.

Elon Musk:        Your welcome. That’s coming later.

Joe Rogan:        How does one, just in the middle of doing all the things you do, create cars, rockets, all this stuff you’re doing, constantly innovating, decide to just make a flame thrower? Why do you have the time for that?

Elon Musk:        Well, the thing… I wouldn’t put a lot of time into the flame thrower. This was an off the cuff thing. So I have sort of like a, sort of a hobby company called The Boring Company, which started out as a joke, and we decided to make it real, and dig a tunnel under L.A. And then other people asked us to dig tunnels. And so we said yes in a few cases.

Elon Musk:        And we have a merchandise section that only has one piece of merchandise at a time. And we started off with a cap. And there was only one thing on… It was just Boring Company.com/cap or hat. That’s it. And then we sold the hats. Limited edition. It just said the Boring Company. And then I’m a big fan of Spaceballs the movie. And in Spaceballs Yogurt goes through the merchandising section and they have a flame thrower, in the merchandising section of Spaceballs. And the kids loved that one. That’s the line of when he pulls out the flame thrower. So I was like, we should do a flame thrower. So we…

Joe Rogan:        Does anybody tell you no? Does anybody go, “Elon, um, maybe for yourself. But selling a flame thrower, the liabilities, all the people you’re selling this devise to. What kind of an unhinged people are going to be buying a flame thrower in the first place? Do we really want to connect ourselves to all these potential arsonists?”

Elon Musk:        Yeah, it’s a terrible idea. Terrible. You shouldn’t buy one. I said don’t buy this flame thrower. Don’t buy it. Don’t buy it. That’s what I said. But still people bought it.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah. They’re not gonna listen.

Elon Musk:        There’s nothing I can do to stop them. I cannot stop them.

Joe Rogan:        You build it, they will come.

Elon Musk:        I said don’t buy it. It’s a bad idea.

Joe Rogan:        How many did you make?

Elon Musk:        It’s dangerous. It’s wrong. Don’t buy it. And still people bought it. I just couldn’t stop them.

Joe Rogan:        How many did you make?

Elon Musk:        20,000.

Joe Rogan:        And they’re all gone?

Elon Musk:        In three, I think four days. They sold out in four days.

Joe Rogan:        Are you gonna do another run?

Elon Musk:        No.

Joe Rogan:        No, that’s it?

Elon Musk:        Yes. I said we would do 20,000. We did 50,000 hats. And that was a million dollars. And I was like, okay, we’ll sell something for 10 million. And that was 20,000 flame throwers at $500 each. They went fast.

Joe Rogan:        How do you have the time to do that though. I mean, I understand that it’s not a big deal, in terms of all the other things that you do. But how do you have time to do anything? I just don’t understand your time management skills.

Elon Musk:        I mean, I didn’t spend much time on this flame thrower. I mean, to be totally frank, it’s actually just a roofing torch with an air rifle cover. It’s not a real flame thrower.

Joe Rogan:        Which is why it says not a flame thrower.

Elon Musk:        That’s why we were very clear. This is not actually a flame thrower. And also we were told that various countries would band shipping of it. That they would band flame throwers. So we varied to solve this problem for all the custom agencies, we labeled it not a flame thrower.

Joe Rogan:        Did it work? Was it effective?

Elon Musk:        I don’t know. I think so. Yes.

Joe Rogan:        So far.

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        Now, but you do…

Elon Musk:        Cause they said you could not ship a flame thrower.

Joe Rogan:        But you do so many different things. Forget about the flame thrower. Like, how do you do all that other shit? Like, how does one decide to fix L.A. traffic by drilling holes in the ground? And who do you even approach with that? Like, when you have this idea, who do you talk to about that?

Elon Musk:        I mean, I’m not saying it’s going to be successful. You know, I’m not asserting that it’s going to be successful. But so far I’ve lived in L.A. for 16 years, and the traffic has always been terrible. And so I don’t see any other ideas for improving the traffic. So, in desperation, we are going to dig a tunnel. And maybe that tunnel will be successful and maybe it won’t.

Joe Rogan:        I’m listening.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. I’m not trying to convince you it’s going to work.

Joe Rogan:        And are the people that you…

Elon Musk:        Or anyone.

Joe Rogan:        But you are starting this though. This is actually a project you’re starting to implement. Right?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, yeah. We’ve dug about a mile. It’s quite long. It takes a long time to walk it.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah. Now, when you’re doing this, what is the ultimate plan? The ultimate plan is to have these in major cities, and anywhere there’s mass congestion, and just try it out in L.A. first?

Elon Musk:        Yeah. It’s in L.A. because I mostly live in L.A. That’s the reason. It’s a terrible place to dig tunnels. This is one of the worst place to dig tunnels, because the… Mostly because of the paperwork. People think it’s like, what about seismic. It’s like, actually, tunnels are very safe in earthquakes.

Joe Rogan:        Why is that?

Elon Musk:        Earthquakes are essentially a surface phenomenon. It’s like waves on the ocean. So if there’s a storm, you want to be in a submarine. So being in a tunnel is like being in a submarine. Now the way the tunnel’s constructed is it’s constructed out of these interlocking segments. Kind of like a snake. It’s sort of like a snake exoskeleton with double seals. And so, even when the ground moves the tunnel is actually able to shift along with the ground. Like an underground snake. And it doesn’t crack or break. And it’s extremely unlikely that both seals would be broken. And it’s incapable of taking five atmospheres of pressure. It’s water proof, methane proof, or gas proof of any kind. And meets all California seismic requirements.

Joe Rogan:        So when you have this idea, who do you bring this to?

Elon Musk:        I’m not sure what you mean by that.

Joe Rogan:        Well, when you’re implementing it. So you’re digging holes in the ground.

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        Like, you have to bring it to someone that lets you do it.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, so, there were some engineers from SpaceX who thought it would be cool to do this. And the guy who runs the day to day, Steve Davis, he’s a long time space engineer. He’s great. So, Steve was like, “I’d like to help make this happen.” I was like, cool.

Elon Musk:        So we started off with digging a hole in the ground. Just got like a permit for a pit, a big pit, and just dug a big pit.

Joe Rogan:        And you had to tell them what the pit’s for? Or you just, uh, hey, we just want to dig a hole?

Elon Musk:        They just fill out this form.

Joe Rogan:        That’s it?

Elon Musk:        Yeah. It was put in our parking lot.

Joe Rogan:        But do you have to give them some sort of blueprint for your ultimate idea? And do they have to approve it? Like, how does that work?

Elon Musk:        No, we just started off with the pit.

Joe Rogan:        Okay.

Elon Musk:        A big pit. And they don’t really care about the existential nature of a pit. You just say I want a pit.

Joe Rogan:        Right.

Elon Musk:        You know? And it’s a hole in the ground. So then we have a permit for the pit and we dug the pit. And we dug in in, I don’t know, three days, two or three days. Actually I think 48 hours. Something like that. Cause Eric [inaudible 00:08:22] said he was coming by for the hype… He was gonna attend the Hyperloop competition. Which is a student competition we have for who can make the fastest pod in the hyperloop.

Elon Musk:        And he was coming. The finals were going to be on Sunday afternoon. And so Eric was coming by on Sunday afternoon and I was like, you know, we should dig this pit and then show Eric. And this was like, Friday morning. And then, yeah, it was about a little over 40 hours. And 40 hours later we dug the pit. It was like we’re in 24/7 or 24. 48 straight hours. Something like that. And dug this big pit. And we’re like, showed Eric the pit. Like, obviously it’s just a pit. But hey, a hole in the ground is better than no hole in the ground.

Joe Rogan:        And what did you tell him about this pit? I mean, you just said this is the beginning of this idea?

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        We’re gonna build tunnels under L.A. to help funnel traffic better.

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        And they just go, okay? But we’ve joked around about this in the podcast before. To like, what other person can go to the people that run the city and go, “Hey, we’re gonna did some holes under ground and put some tunnels in there.” And they go, “Oh yeah, okay.”

Elon Musk:        Nothing wrong with a hole in the ground. People dig holes in the ground all the time.

Joe Rogan:        But my question is, like, I know how much time you must be spending on your Tesla factory. I know how much time you must be spending on SpaceX. And yet you still have time to dig holes under the ground in L.A. and come up with these ideas, and then implement them.

Elon Musk:        I got a million ideas.

Joe Rogan:        I’m sure you do.

Elon Musk:        There’s no shortage of that. Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        I just don’t know how you manage your time. I don’t understand it. It doesn’t even seem humanly possible.

Elon Musk:        You know, I do basically… I think people like don’t totally understand what I do with my time. They think that I’m a business guy or something like that. On my Wikipedia page it says business magnate.

Joe Rogan:        What would you call yourself?

Elon Musk:        A business magnet. Could someone please change my Wikipedia page to magnet?

Joe Rogan:        They’ll change it right now.

Elon Musk:        Please change it to…

Joe Rogan:        It’s probably already changed.

Elon Musk:        It’s locked. So somebody has to be able to unlock it and change it to magnet.

Joe Rogan:        Someone will get that.

Elon Musk:        I want to be a magnet. I do engineering, and manufacturing, and that kind of thing. That’s like 80 percent or more of my time.

Joe Rogan:        Ideas and then implementation of those ideas.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, it’s like hardcore engineering.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah.

Elon Musk:        Like designing things, you know.

Joe Rogan:        Right.

Elon Musk:        Structural, mechanical, electrical, software, user interface, engineering, aerospace engineering.

Joe Rogan:        But you must understand there’s not a whole lot of human beings like you. You know that right? To us you’re an oddity-

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        -to chimps like me.

Elon Musk:        We’re all chimps.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah we are.

Elon Musk:        We’re one notch above a chimp.

Joe Rogan:        Some of us are little bit more confused. When I watch you do all these things I’m like, how does this mother fucker have all this time, and all this energy, and all these ideas, and then people just let him do these things?

Elon Musk:        Because I’m an alien.

Joe Rogan:        That’s what I’ve speculated.

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        That I’m on record saying this in the past. I wonder.

Elon Musk:        It’s true.

Joe Rogan:        It there was one. I was like if there was like maybe an intelligent being that we created. You know, like some A.I. creature that’s superior to people. Then they would just hang around us for a little while like you’ve been doing. And then fix a bunch of shit. I mean, that’s the way.

Elon Musk:        I might have some mutation or something like that.

Joe Rogan:        You might. Do you think you do?

Elon Musk:        Probably.

Joe Rogan:        Do you wonder? Like, when you’re around normal people you’re like, hmm. Like, what’s up with these boring dumb mother fuckers? Ever?

Elon Musk:        Not bad for a human. But I thing we will not be able to hold a candle to A.I.

Joe Rogan:        You scare the shit out of me when you talk about A.I. Between you and Sam Harris.

Elon Musk:        Oh sure.

Joe Rogan:        I didn’t even consider it until I had a podcast with Sam once-

Elon Musk:        That’s great.

Joe Rogan:        -and he made me shit my pants. Talking about A.I., I realize like, oh, well this is a genie that once it’s out of the bottle you’re never getting it back in.

Elon Musk:        That’s true.

Joe Rogan:        There was a video that you tweeted about one of those Boston dynamic robots.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        And you were like, in the future it’ll be moving so fast you can’t see it without a strobe light.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. You could probably do that right now.

Joe Rogan:        And no one’s really paying attention to much. Other than people like you or people that are really obsessed with technology. All these things are happening. These robots are… Did you see the one where PETA put out a statement that you shouldn’t kick robots?

Elon Musk:        Probably not wise.

Joe Rogan:        For retribution.

Elon Musk:        Their memory is very good.

Joe Rogan:        I bet it’s really good.

Elon Musk:        It’s really good.

Joe Rogan:        I bet it is.

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        And getting better every day.

Elon Musk:        It’s really good.

Joe Rogan:        Are you honestly, legitimately concerned about this? Is A.I. one of your main worries in regards to the future?

Elon Musk:        Yes. It’s less of a worry than it used to be. Mostly due to taking more of a fatalistic attitude.

Joe Rogan:        So you used to have more hope and you gave up some of it, and now you don’t worry as much about A.I. You’re like, this is just what it is?

Elon Musk:        Pretty much. No, it’s not necessarily bad. It’s just, it’s definitely going to be outside of human control.

Joe Rogan:        Not necessarily bad, right?

Elon Musk:        It’s not necessarily bad. It’s just outside of human control. Now the thing that’s going to be tricky here is that it’s going to be very tempting to use A.I. as a weapon. It’s going to be very tempting. In fact, it will be used as a weapon. So the on ramp to serious A.I., the danger is going to be more humans using it against each other I think. Most likely. That’ll be the danger. Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        How far do you think we are from something that can make its own mind up whether or not something ethically or morally correct, or whether or not it wants to do something, or whether or not it wants to improve itself, or whether or not it wants to protect itself from people, or from other A.I. How far away are we from something that’s really, truly sentient?

Elon Musk:        Well, I mean, you could argue that any group of people, like, a company is essentially a cybernetic collective of people and machines. That’s what a company is. And then there are different levels of complexity in the way these companies are formed. And then there are sort of this collective A.I. in the Google sort of search. Google search. You know, where we’re all sort of plugged in as like nerds on the network. Like leaves on a big tree. We’re all feeding this network with our questions and answers. We’re all collectively programming the A.I. And Google plus all the humans that connect to it are one giant cybernetic collective.

Elon Musk:        This also true of Facebook, and Twitter, and Instagram, and all these social networks. They’re giant cybernetic collectives.

Joe Rogan:        Humans and electronics all interfacing. And constantly now. Constantly connected?

Elon Musk:        Yes. Constantly.

Joe Rogan:        One of the things that I’ve been thinking about a lot over the last few years is, that one of the things that drives a lot of people crazy is how many people are obsessed with materialism and getting the greatest thing. And I wonder how much of that is… Well, a lot of it is most certainly fueling technology and innovation. It almost seems like it’s built in to us. It’s like what we like and what we want. That we’re fueling this thing that’s constantly around us all the time. And it doesn’t seem possible that people are going to pump the breaks. It doesn’t seem possible at this stage where we’re constantly expecting newest cellphone, the latest Tesla update, the newest MacBook Pro. Everything has to be newer and better.

Joe Rogan:        And that’s going to lead to some incredible point. And it seems like it’s built into us. It almost seems like it’s an instinct that we’re working towards this. That we like it. That our job, just like the ants build the ant hill, our job is to somehow to fuel this.

Elon Musk:        Yes. I made those comments some years ago. But it feels like we are the biological boot loader for A.I. effectively. We are moving it. And then we’re building progressively greater intelligence. And the percentage of intelligence that is not human is increasing. And eventually we will represent a very small percentage of intelligence.

Elon Musk:        But the A.I. is informed, strangely, by the human limbic system. It is in large part our [inaudible 00:18:01].

Joe Rogan:        How so?

Elon Musk:        We mentioned all those things. The sort of primal drives-

Joe Rogan:        Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Elon Musk:        -as all the things that we like, and hate, and fear. There all there on the internet. They’re a projection of our limbic system. It’s true.

Joe Rogan:        No, it makes sense. The thinking of it as a… Thinking of corporations and just thinking of just human beings communicating online through these social media networks as some sort of an organism that’s a cyborg. It’s combination. It’s a combination of electronics and biology.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. And some measure, like the success of these online systems, is sort of a function of how much limbic resonance they’re able to achieve with people. The more limbic resonance, the more engagement.

Joe Rogan:        Whereas, like, one of the reasons probably Instagram is more enticing than Twitter.

Elon Musk:        Limbic resonance.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah. More images, more video.

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        Tweaking your system more.

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        Do you worry or wonder, in fact, about what the next step is? I mean, a lot of people didn’t see Twitter coming. That, you know, communicating with 140 characters, or 280 now, would be a thing that people would be interested in. Like, it’s gonna excel, it’s gonna become more connected to us, right?

Elon Musk:        Yes. Things are getting more and more connected. They’re, at this point, constrained by [inaudible 00:19:53]. Our input/output is slow. Particularly output. Output got worse with thumbs. You know, we used to have input with ten fingers. Now we have thumbs. But images are also a way of communicating at high bandwidth. You take pictures and you send pictures to people. That communicates far more information that you can communicate with your thumbs.

Joe Rogan:        So what happened with you where you decided, or you took on a more fatalistic attitude? Was there any specific thing? Or was it just the inevitability of our future?

Elon Musk:        I try to convince people to slow down, slow down A.I., to regulate A.I. This was futile. I tried for years. But nobody listened.

Joe Rogan:        This seems like a scene in a movie where the robots are gonna fucking take over. You’re freaking me out. Nobody listened?

Elon Musk:        Nobody listened.

Joe Rogan:        No one? Are people more inclined to listen today? It seems like an issue that’s brought up more often over the last few years than it was maybe five, ten years ago, it seemed like science fiction.

Elon Musk:        Maybe they will. So far they haven’t. I think people don’t… Like, normally the way that regulations work is very slow. It’s very slow indeed. So, usually there will be something. Some new technology. It will cause damage or death. There will be an outcry. There will be an investigation. Years will pass. There will be some sort of incite committee. There will be rule making. Then there will be oversight. Eventually regulations. This all takes many years. This is the normal course of things.

Elon Musk:        If you look at say, automotive regulations. How long did it take for seat belts to be implemented, to be required? You know, the auto industry fought seat belts, I think, for more than a decade. Successfully fought any regulations on seat belts. Even though the numbers were extremely obvious. If you had a seatbelt on you would be far less likely to die or be seriously injured. It was unequivocal.

Elon Musk:        And the industry fought this for years, successfully. Eventually after many, many people died, regulators insisted on seat belts. This timeframe is not relevant to A.I. You can’t 10 years from the point at which is dangerous. It’s too late.

Joe Rogan:        And you feel like this is decades away or years away from being too late? If you have this fatalistic attitude and you feel like it’s going to… We’re in an almost like a doomsday countdown.

Elon Musk:        It’s not necessarily a doomsday countdown. It’s a…

Joe Rogan:        Out of control countdown?

Elon Musk:        Out of control. Yeah. People call it the singularity. And that’s probably a good way to think about it. It’s a singularity. It’s hard to predict. Like a black hole. What happens past the event horizon?

Joe Rogan:        Right. So once it’s implemented it’s very difficult… cause it will be able to…

Elon Musk:        Once the genie gets out of the bottle what’s going to happen?

Joe Rogan:        Right. And it will be able to improve itself.

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        That’s where it gets spooky, right? The idea that it can do thousands of years of innovation very, very quickly.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        And then we’ll be just ridiculous.

Elon Musk:        Ridiculous.

Joe Rogan:        We will be like this ridiculous biological shitting pissing thing trying to stop the gods. No stop. We like living with a finite life span and watching Norman Rockwell paintings.

Elon Musk:        It could be terrible and it could be great. It’s not clear.

Joe Rogan:        Right.

Elon Musk:        But one thing is for sure, we will not control it.

Joe Rogan:        Do you think that it’s likely that we will emerge somehow or another with this sort of technology, and it will augment what we are now? Or do you think it will replace us?

Elon Musk:        Well, that’s the scenario, the emerge scenario with A.I. is the one that seems like probably the best.

Joe Rogan:        For us?

Elon Musk:        Yes. Like, if you can’t beat it, join it.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah.

Elon Musk:        You know? So, from a long term existential standpoint, that’s like the purpose of neuro link. Is to create a hight bandwidth interface to the brain such that we can be symbiotic with A.I. Cause we have a bandwidth problem. We just can’t communicate through. It goes through too slow.

Joe Rogan:        And where’s neuro link at right now?

Elon Musk:        I think we’ll have something interesting to announce in a few months. That’s at least in order of magnitude rather that anything else. I think better that probably anyone thinks is possible.

Joe Rogan:        How much can you talk about that right now?

Elon Musk:        I don’t want to jump the gun on that.

Joe Rogan:        But what’s like the ultimate… What’s the idea behind it? What are you trying to accomplish with it? What would you like? Best case scenario.

Elon Musk:        I think best case scenario we effectively merge with A.I. where A.I. serves as a [inaudible 00:25:46] cognition layer where we got the limbic system. The primitive brain essentially. You got the cortex. So you’re currently in a symbiotic relationship. Your cortex and limbic system are in a symbiotic relationship. And generally people like their cortex and they like their limbic system. I haven’t met anyone who wants to delete their limbic system or delete their cortex. Everybody seems to like both.

Elon Musk:        And the cortex is mostly in service to the limbic system. People may think that the thinking part of themselves is in charge, but it’s mostly the limbic system that’s in charge. And the cortex is trying to make the limbic system happy. That’s what most of that computing power is going towards, how can I make the limbic system happy. That’s what it’s trying to do.

Elon Musk:        Now, If we do have a third layer, which is the A.I. extension of yourself that is also symbiotic, and there’s enough bandwidth between the cortex and the A.I. extension of yourself such that the A.I. doesn’t defacto separate, then that could be a good outcome. That could be quite a positive outcome for the future.

Joe Rogan:        So instead of replacing us, it will radically change our capabilities?

Elon Musk:        Yes. It will enable anyone who wants to have super human cognition. Anyone who wants. It is not a matter of earning power, because your earning power would be vastly greater after you do it. So it’s just like anyone who wants can just do it, in theory. That’s the theory.

Elon Musk:        And if that’s the case, then let’s say billions of people do it, then the outcome for humanity will be the sum of human will. The some of billions of people’s desire for the future.

Joe Rogan:        Billions of people with enhanced cognitive ability.

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        Radically enhanced?

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        And which would be… But how much different than people today? Like if you had to explain it to a person who didn’t really understand what you were saying. How much different are you talking about? When you say radically improved, like, what do you mean? Do you mean mind reading?

Elon Musk:        It would be difficult to really appreciate the difference. It’s kind of like how much smarter are you with a phone or computer than without. Your vastly smarter actually. You know, you could answer any question if you’re connected to the internet. You can answer any question pretty much instantly. Any calculation. That your phone’s memory is essentially perfect. You can remember flawlessly. Your phone can remember videos, pictures, everything perfectly.

Elon Musk:        Your phone is already an extension of you. You’re already a cyborg. Most people don’t realize they are already a cyborg. That phone is an extension of yourself. It’s just that the data rate, the rate at which the communication rate between you and the cybernetic extension of yourself, that is your phone and computer, is slow. It’s very slow. And that’s like a tiny stroll of information flow between your biological self and your digital self. And we need to make that tiny stroll like a giant river. A huge high bandwidth interface. It’s an interface problem. Data rate problem.

Elon Musk:        You solve the data rate problem and I think we can hang on to human machines and biosis through the long term. And then people may decide that they want to retain their biological self or not. I think they will probably choose to retain their biological self.

Joe Rogan:        Versus some sort of [inaudible 00:30:09] scenario where they download themselves into at computer?

Elon Musk:        You will be essentially snap shotted into a computer at any time. If your biological self dies you can just probably upload into a new unit. Literally.

Joe Rogan:        Pass that whiskey. We’re getting crazy over here. This is getting ridiculous.

Elon Musk:        Down the rabbit hole.

Joe Rogan:        Grab that sucker. Give me some of that. This is too freaky.

Elon Musk:        I’ve been thinking about this for a long time by the way.

Joe Rogan:        I believe you have. If i was talking to on of my… Cheers by the way.

Elon Musk:        Cheers. Hey, this is some great whiskey.

Joe Rogan:        Thank you. I don’t know where this came from. Who brought this to us?

Jamie:              I’m trying to remember. I can’t.

Joe Rogan:        Somebody gave it to us. Old Camp. Whoever it was, thanks.

Elon Musk:        It’s good.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, it is good. This is just inevitable. Again, going back to when you decided to have this fatalistic viewpoint. So, you tried to warn people. You talked about this pretty extensively. I’ve read several interviews where you talked about this. And then you just sort of said, okay, it just is. And in a way you’re, by communicating the potential fear. I mean, for sure you’re getting the warning out to some people?

Elon Musk:        Yeah. I mean, I was really going on the warning quite a lot. Warning everyone I could. Even met with Obama and just for one reason, like, you better watch out.

Joe Rogan:        Just to talk about A.I.?

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        And what did he say? He said what about Hillary. Worry about her first. Shhh. Everybody be quiet.

Elon Musk:        No, he listened. He certainly listened. I met with congress. I was at meeting with all 50 governors and talked about just the A.I. danger. And I talked to everyone I could. No one seemed to realize where this was going.

PART 1 OF 5 ENDS [00:32:04]

Elon Musk:        No one seemed to realize where this was going.

Joe Rogan:        Is it that or do they just assume that someone smarter than them has already taken care of it? Because when people hear about something like AI, it’s almost abstract. It’s almost like it’s so hard to wrap your head around it …

Elon Musk:        It is.

Joe Rogan:        … by the time it already happens it will be too late.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. I think they didn’t quite understand it or didn’t think it was near term or not sure what to do about it. I feel like an obvious thing to do is to just establish a committee, government committee, to gain insight before you oversight, before you do regulations just try to understand what’s going on. And then you have an insight committee and once they learn what’s going on, get up to speed, then they can make maybe some rules or propose some rules. And that would be probably a safer way to go about things.

Joe Rogan:        It seems … I know that it’s probably something that the government is supposed to handle but it seems like I wouldn’t want … I don’t want the government to handle this.

Elon Musk:        Who do you want to handle it?

Joe Rogan:        I want you to handle this.

Elon Musk:        Oh, do you?

Joe Rogan:        Yeah. I feel like you’re the one who could ring the bell better. Because if Mike Pence starts talking about AI, I’m like, “Shut up, bitch. You don’t know anything about AI.” Come on, man. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, but I don’t have the power to regulate other companies. What am I supposed to …?

Joe Rogan:        Right. But maybe companies could agree. Maybe there could be sort of a … We have agreements where you’re not supposed to dump toxic waste into the ocean. You’re not supposed to do certain things that could be terribly damaging even though they’d be profitable. Maybe this is one of those things. Maybe we should realize that you can’t hit the switch on something that’s going to be able to think for itself and make up its own mind as to whether or not it wants to survive or not. And whether or not it thinks you’re a threat. And whether or not it thinks you’re useless. Like, “Why do I keep this dumb, finite life form alive. Why keep this thing around? It’s just stupid. It just keeps polluting everything. It’s shitting everywhere it goes, lighting everything on fire and shooting each other. Why would I keep this stupid thing alive. Because sometimes it makes good music? Sometimes it makes great movies and sometimes it makes beautiful art and sometimes it’s cool to hang out with.”

Elon Musk:        Yeah. All those reasons.

Joe Rogan:        For us, those are great reasons. But for anything objective, standing outside, I’d go, “Oh, this is definitely a flawed system.” This is like if you went to the jungle and you watched these chimps engage in warfare and beat each other up.

Elon Musk:        Chimps are really mean.

Joe Rogan:        They’re fucking real mean.

Elon Musk:        Fucking mean.

Joe Rogan:        They’re real mean.

Elon Musk:        I saw that movie Chimpanzee. I thought it was going to be like some Disney thing. I was like, “Holy Cow.”

Joe Rogan:        What movie was that?

Elon Musk:        It was a movie called Chimpanzee.

Joe Rogan:        Is it a documentary?

Elon Musk:        Yeah. It’s kind of like a documentary. I was like, “Damn these chimps are mean.”

Joe Rogan:        They’re mean.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. They’re cruel.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah. They’re calculated.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        They sneak up on each other.

Elon Musk:        I didn’t realize chimps calculated cruelty. I left that movie kind of like, “Whoa. This is dark.”

Joe Rogan:        Right, well we know better because we’ve advanced. But if we hadn’t we’d be like, “Man I don’t want to fucking live in a house. I like the chimp ways, bro. Chimps ways go. This is it, man. Chimp life.”

Elon Musk:        Chimp life.

Joe Rogan:        But we, in a way, to the AI might be like those chimps. And like, “These stupid fucks launching missiles out of drones and shooting each underwater.” Like we’re crazy. We’ve got torpedoed submarines and fucking airplanes that drop nuclear bombs indiscriminately on cities. We’re assholes.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        They might go, “Why are they doing this.” They might like look at our politics, look at what we do in terms of our food system, what kind of food we force down each other’s throats. And might go, “These people are crazy. They don’t even look out for themselves.”

Elon Musk:        I don’t know. How much do we think about chimps. Not much.

Joe Rogan:        Very little.

Elon Musk:        It’s like these chimps are at war. These groups of chimps just attack each other and they kill each other and they torture each other. It’s pretty bad. They hunt monkeys. This is probably the most … I mean, when’s the last time you talked about chimps?

Joe Rogan:        Me?

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        All the time.

Elon Musk:        You do?

Joe Rogan:        You’re talking to the wrong guy. This fucking podcast, dude, I talk about chimps ever episode.

Elon Musk:        Chimp city? Okay.

Joe Rogan:        People are laughing right now. Yeah. Constantly. I’m obsessed. I saw that David Attenborough documentary on chimps where they were eating those colobus monkeys and ripping them apart.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. This was rough. Gruesome.

Joe Rogan:        I saw that many, many years ago. It changed how I …. “Oh, this is why people are so crazy. We came from that thing.”

Elon Musk:        Yeah. Exactly. And there’s the bonobos. They’ve got a better philosophy.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, they’re like swingers. They really are. They seem to be way more – even than us – way more civilized.

Elon Musk:        They just seem to resolve everything with sex.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah. The only rules they have is the mom won’t bang the son. That’s it.

Elon Musk:        Okay.

Joe Rogan:        That’s it. Mom won’t bang her sons. They’re good women. Good women of bonobos community. Everybody else is banging it out.

Elon Musk:        I haven’t seen the bonobos movie.

Joe Rogan:        Well, they’re disturbing just at a zoo. You have bonobos at a zoo.

Elon Musk:        They’re just constantly going?

Joe Rogan:        They’re constantly fucking. Yeah. That’s all they do.

Elon Musk:        [inaudible 00:37:31] stuff.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah. And they don’t care. Gay. Straight. Whatever. Let’s just fuck. What’s with these labels?

Elon Musk:        I haven’t seen bonobos at a zoo. That was probably not in the PG section.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, I don’t think they have them at many zoos. We’ve looked that up before too.

Elon Musk:        It’s probably pretty awkward.

Joe Rogan:        I think that’s a thing. They like to keep regular chimps at zoos because bonobos just always jacking off and fucking.

Jamie:              [inaudible 00:37:53] San Diego.

Joe Rogan:        What’s that? They have the in San Diego?

Elon Musk:        San Diego’s has got them.

Joe Rogan:        Really. Interesting. Probably separate them.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. I mean, how many other in the cage? It’s going to be pretty intense.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah. What a weird thing. And I’ve often wondered whether or not we’re … our ultimate goal is to give birth to some new thing, and that’s why we’re so obsessed with technology. Because it’s not like this technology is really … I mean, it’s certainly enhancing our lives in a certain way. But ultimately is it making people happier right now? Most technology, I would say no. In fact you and I were talking about social media before this, about just not having Instagram on your phone and not dealing … You feel better.

Elon Musk:        Yes. I think one of the issues with social media that’s been pointed out by many people is that, I think maybe particularly Instagram, people look like they have a much better life than they really do.

Joe Rogan:        Right. By design.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. People are posting pictures of when they’re really happy. They’re modifying those pictures to be better looking. Even if they’re not modifying the pictures, they’re at least selecting the pictures for the best lighting, the best angle. So people basically seem … They’re way better looking than they basically really are. And they’re way happier seeming than they really are.

Elon Musk:        So if you look at everyone on Instagram you might think, “Man, there are all these happy, beautiful people. And I’m not that good looking and I’m not happy. So I must suck.” You know, and that’s going to make you feel sad. So when, in fact, those people you think are super happy actually not that happy. Some of them are really depressed. They’re very sad. Some of the happiest seeming people, actually some of the saddest people in reality.

Elon Musk:        And nobody looks good all the time. It doesn’t matter who you are.

Joe Rogan:        No. It’s not even something you should want. Why do you want to look great all the time?

Elon Musk:        Yeah. Exactly. So I think things like that can make people quite sad. Just by comparison. Because people generally think of themselves relative to others. We are constantly rebaselining our expectations. And you can see this, say, if you watch some show like Naked and Afraid or if you just go and try living in the woods by yourself for a while. And you’re like, “Civilization is quite great.” People want to come back to civilization pretty fast on Naked and Afraid.

Joe Rogan:        Wasn’t that a Thoreau quote, that comparison is the thief of joy?

Elon Musk:        Yeah. Or happiness is reality minus expectations.

Joe Rogan:        That’s great too. But the comparison is the thief of joy really holds true to … Is it?

Elon Musk:        Theodore Roosevelt.

Joe Rogan:        Roosevelt. Fascinating. And when you’re thinking about Instagram, because what essentially Instagram is with a lot of people is you’re giving them the opportunity to be their own PR agent. And they always go towards the glamorous. And when anybody does show, you know #no filter, they really do do that. “Oh, you’re so brave. Look at you. No make up.” They look good anyway. You look great. What are you doing. Oh my god, you don’t have makeup on. You still look hot as fuck. You know what you’re doing. I know what you’re doing too. They’re letting you know and then they’re feeding off that comment section. Oooh, just look. Sitting there like it’s a fresh stream of love. Like you’re getting right up to the source as it comes out of the earth and you’re sucking that sweet, sweet love water.

Elon Musk:        A lot of emojis. Emojis. Emojis. A lot of emojis.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah. My concern is not so much what Instagram is, is that I didn’t think the people had the need for this or the expectation for some sort of technology that allows them to constantly get love and adulation from strangers, and comments, and this ability to project this sort of distorted version of who you really are. But I worry about where it goes. Like what’s the next one? What’s the next one? Where is it? Is it going to be augmented? Some sort of a weird augmented or virtual sort of Instagram type situation, where you’re not going to want to live in this real world? You’re going to interface with this world that you’ve created through your social media page. Some next level thing.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. Go live in the simulation. In the simulation.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah. Some Ready Player One type shit that’s real. We have that HTC Vive here. I’ve only done it a couple of times quite honestly because it kind of freaks me out. My kids fucking love it, man. They love it. They love playing these weirdo games and walking around with that headset on. But part of me watching them do it goes, “Wow. I wonder if this is like the precursor?” Just sort of like if you look at that phone that Gordon Gekko had on the beach.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, big cell phone.

Joe Rogan:        And you compare that to a Galaxy Note 9. How the fuck did that become that? Right? And I wonder when I see this HTC Vive, I’m like, “What is that thing going to be 10 years from now when we’re making fun of what it is now?” How ingrained, and how connected and interconnected, is this technology going to be in our life?

Elon Musk:        It will be at some point indistinguishable from reality.

Joe Rogan:        Where we’ll lose this. We’ll lose this. Like you and I are just looking at each other through our eyes. I see you. You see me.

Elon Musk:        Are we?

Joe Rogan:        I think. I hope.

Elon Musk:        You think so.

Joe Rogan:        I think you probably have regular eyes.

Elon Musk:        This could be some simulation.

Joe Rogan:        It could be. Do you entertain that?

Elon Musk:        Well, the argument for the simulation is quite strong because if you assume any improvements at all over time, any improvement, 1%, .1%, just extend the time frame. Make it a thousand years, a million years. The universe is 13.8 billion years old. Civilization, if you’re very generous, civilization is maybe seven or eight thousand years old, if you count it from the first writing. That is nothing. That is nothing.

Elon Musk:        So if you assume any rate of improvement at all then games will be indistinguishable from reality. Or civilization will end. One of those two things will occur. Therefore we are most likely in a simulation, because we exist.

Joe Rogan:        Or, we’re on our way to one. Right?

Joe Rogan:        We could most certainly be on the road. We could be on the road to that, right? It doesn’t mean that it has to have already happened.

Elon Musk:        It could be a base reality. It could be in base reality.

Joe Rogan:        We could be here now, on our way to the destination where this could never happen again. Where we are completely ingrained in some sort of an artificial technology, or some sort of a symbiotic relationship with the internet or the next level of sharing information. But right now we’re not there yet. That’s possible too, right? It’s possible that a simulation is one day going to be inevitable. That we’re going to have something that’s indistinguishable from regular reality? But maybe we’re not there yet. That’s also possible.

Elon Musk:        Yes, it is.

Joe Rogan:        That we’re not quite there yet. That this is real, when I touch that wood.

Elon Musk:        Feels very real.

Joe Rogan:        Maybe that’s why everybody’s into like Mason jars and shit.

Elon Musk:        Mason jars.

Joe Rogan:        Suede shoes. People are into craft restaurants and they want raw wood. Everyone wants to see metal. It seems like people are longing towards some weird log cabin type nostalgia.

Elon Musk:        Sure. Reality.

Joe Rogan:        Like holding on. Like clinging.

Elon Musk:        Sure.

Joe Rogan:        Dragging their nails through the mud, like “Don’t take me yet.”

Elon Musk:        Yes. But then people will go get a Mason jar with a wine stem or handle. That’s dark. Makes me lose faith in humanity.

Joe Rogan:        Mason jar with a wine stem and a handle. They have those?

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        Oh, those [inaudible 00:46:04] people. That’s just assholes. That’s like people make pet rocks.

Elon Musk:        Rough.

Joe Rogan:        Some people are just assholes. They take advantage of our generous nature.

Elon Musk:        It was made with a wine stem, made with a handle.

Joe Rogan:        They made it that way?

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        So one maker welded it onto the Mason …

Elon Musk:        That would be fine if they glued it on or something. But it was made that way.

Joe Rogan:        White trash chic. Oh, this is disgusting. Look at it. There is is right there.

Elon Musk:        Pretty harsh. Yep.

Joe Rogan:        This is terrible. That’s like fake breasts that are designed to be hard, like fake breasts from the ’60s. If you really long for the ones with ripples, here we go. Yeah. That’s almost what that is.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        What are you going to do, man? There’s nothing you can do to stop certain terrible idea from propagating.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. Anyway I don’t want to sound like things are too dark because I think you have to be optimistic about the future. There’s not point in being pessimistic. It’s just to negative.

Joe Rogan:        It’s doesn’t help.

Elon Musk:        It doesn’t help. You know I think you want to be … My theory is you’d rather be optimistic. I’d rather be optimistic and wrong than pessimistic and right. Or on that side. Because if you’re pessimistic you’re just going to be miserable.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah. Nobody wants to be around you anyway if it’s the end of the world, like, “I fucking told you, bro. The world is ending.” It is want it is.

Elon Musk:        Enjoy the journey.

Joe Rogan:        Right. If you really want to get morose, it is what it is for all of us anyway. We’re all going to … unless something changes.

Elon Musk:        Yep. Ultimately even if we just sort of existed as humans forever we’d still eventually, that’d be like the heat death of the universe a zillion years from now.

Joe Rogan:        Right. Even if we get past the sun. We figure out a way past the sun running out of juice.

Elon Musk:        Eventually it’s going to end. It’s just a question of when.

Joe Rogan:        Right.

Elon Musk:        So it really is all about the journey.

Joe Rogan:        Hmmm. Or transcendence, from whatever we are now into something that doesn’t worry about death.

Elon Musk:        The universe as we know it will dissipate into a fine mist of cold nothingness eventually.

Joe Rogan:        And then someone’s going to bottle it and put a fragrance to it. Sell it to French people in another dimension.

Elon Musk:        It’s just a very long time. So I think it’s really just about how can we make it last longer.

Joe Rogan:        Are you a proponent of the multi universes theory? Do you believe that there are many, many universes, and that even if this one fades out that there’s other ones that are starting fresh right now and there’s an infinite number of them? They’re just constantly in this never-ending cycle of birth and death.

Elon Musk:        I think most likely, this is just about probability there are many, many simulations. These simulations, you might as well call them reality. Or you could call them multiverse.

Joe Rogan:        These simulations you believe are created? Like someone has manufactured …?

Elon Musk:        They’re running on the substrate.

Joe Rogan:        So ….?

Elon Musk:        That substrate is probably boring.

Joe Rogan:        Boring?

Elon Musk:        Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Rogan:        How so?

Elon Musk:        Well, when we create a simulation, like a game or a movie, it’s the distillation of what’s interesting about life. You know it takes a year to shoot an action movie. And then that’s all distilled down into two or three hours. So, let me tell you, if you’ve seen an action movie being filmed it’s frigging … it’s boring. It’s super boring. It takes lots of takes because everything is on a green screen. Looks pretty goofy. Doesn’t look cool. But once you add the CGI and have great editing, it’s amazing.

Elon Musk:        So I think most likely if we’re a simulation it’s really boring outside the simulation. Because why would you make a simulation that’s boring? You’d make simulation way more interesting than base reality.

Joe Rogan:        This is if this right now is a simulation?

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        And ultimately, inevitably, as long as we don’t die or get hit by a meteor, we’re going to create some sort of simulation if we continue on the same technological path we’re on right now. But we might not be there yet. So it might not be a simulation here? But it most likely is you feel other places?

Elon Musk:        This notion of place or where is a …

Joe Rogan:        Flawed?

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        A flawed perception?

Elon Musk:        If you have that sort of Vive that’s made by Value, and HTC. It’s really Valve that did it. HTC did the hardware but it’s really a Valve thing.

Joe Rogan:        Makers of Half-Life.

Elon Musk:        Yes. Valve. Great company.

Joe Rogan:        Great company.

Elon Musk:        When you’re in that virtual reality, which is only going to get better, where are you? Where are you really?

Joe Rogan:        Right.

Elon Musk:        You’re aren’t anywhere. You’re in the computer.

Joe Rogan:        What defines where you are?

Elon Musk:        Exactly. It’s your perception.

Joe Rogan:        Is it your perceptions or is it a scale that we have one your butt? You’re right here. I measured you. You’re the same weight as you were when you left. Meanwhile your experience is radically different.

Elon Musk:        Why do you think you are where you are right now? You might not be.

Joe Rogan:        I’ll spark up a joint if you keep talking. Your manager is going to come in here. We might have to lock the door.

Elon Musk:        Right now you think you’re in a studio in LA.

Joe Rogan:        That’s what I heard.

Elon Musk:        You might be in a computer.

Joe Rogan:        Oh, listen, man. I think about this all the time. Yeah. It’s unquestionable that one day that will be the case as long as we keep going. As long as nothing interrupts us. And if we start from scratch and we’re single celled organisms all over again. And then millions and millions of years later we become the next thing that is us, with creativity and the ability to change the environment. It’s going to keep monkeying with things until it figures out a way to change reality. To change … almost like punch a hole through what is this thing into what it wants it to be and create new things. And then those new things will intersect with other people’s new things. And it’ll be this ultimate pathway of infinite ideas and expression. All through technology.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        And then we’re going to wonder why are we here? What are we doing?

Elon Musk:        Let’s find out. I mean I think we should take the set of actions that are most likely to make the future better.

Joe Rogan:        Yes. Right. Right. Right.

Elon Musk:        And then reevaluate those actions to make sure that it’s true.

Joe Rogan:        Well, I think there’s a movement to that, I mean in terms of a social movement. I think some of it’s misguided and some of it’s exaggerated. And there’s a lot of people that are fighting for their side out there. But it seems like the general trend of social awareness seems to be much more heightened now than it’s ever been in any other time in history because of our ability to express ourselves instantaneously to each other, through Facebook or Twitter or what have you. And that the trend is to abandon preconceived notions, abandon prejudice, abandon discrimination, and promote kindness and happiness as much as possible.

Joe Rogan:        Look at this knife. Somebody gave it to me.

Elon Musk:        What is it?

Joe Rogan:        What the fuck did you do? Oh, my friend Donny. He brought this with him and it just stayed here. I have a real samurai sword if you want to play with that. I know you’re into weapons. That’s from the 1500s. Samurai sword at the end of the table.

Elon Musk:        Really? That’s cool.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah. I’ll grab it. Hold on. Yeah. That’s a legit samurai sword from an actual samurai, from 1500s. If you pull out that blade. That blade was made the old way, where a master craftsman …

Elon Musk:        Folded metal?

Joe Rogan:        … folded that metal and hammered it down over and over again over a long period of time, and honed that blade into what it is now. What’s crazy is that more than 500 years later that thing is still pristine. Whoever took care of that and passed it down to the next person who took care of it, until it got to the podcast room. It’s pretty fucking crazy.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        One day someone is going to be looking at a Tesla like that. These fucking back doors, they pop off sideways. Like a Lamborghini.

Elon Musk:        You should see what the Tesla can do. I’ll show you afterwards.

Joe Rogan:        I’ve driven one. I love them.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, but most people don’t know what it can do.

Joe Rogan:        In terms of like ludicrous mode? In terms of like driving super fast and irresponsibly on public roads? Is that what you’re saying?

Elon Musk:        Oh, any car can do that.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah. What can it do that I need to know about?

Elon Musk:        The Model X can do this like ballet thing to the Trans Siberian Orchestra. It’s pretty cool.

Joe Rogan:        Where it dances?

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Legitimately? Like moves around da da da?

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Why would you program that into a car?

Elon Musk:        Seemed like fun.

Joe Rogan:        That’s what I get about you. That’s what’s weird. Like when you showed up here you were all smiles, and you pull out a fucking blow torch and not a blow torch, but I’m like, “Look at this dude.”

Elon Musk:        Not a flamethrower.

Joe Rogan:        Now a flamethrower. I’m like, “He’s having fun.”

Elon Musk:        I want to be clear. It’s definitely not.

Joe Rogan:        You’re having fun. This thing. You program a car to do a ballet dance.

Elon Musk:        It’s great.

Joe Rogan:        You’re having fun. How do you have the time to do that. I don’t understand. While you’re digging holes under the earth, and sending rockets into space, and powering people in Australia, how the fuck do you have time to make the car dance ballet?

Elon Musk:        Well, in that case there were some engineers at Tesla that said, “What if we make this car dance and play music?” I was like, “That sounds great. Please do it. Let’s try to get it done in time for Christmas.” We did.

Joe Rogan:        Is there a concern about someone just losing their mind and making it do that on the highway?

Elon Musk:        No, it won’t do that.

Joe Rogan:        What if it’s in bumper to bumper traffic?

Elon Musk:        Nope.

Joe Rogan:        No, won’t do it.

Elon Musk:        Nope. Actually you have to … it’s an Easter egg.

Joe Rogan:        Oh, it’s an Easter egg.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. That’s why people don’t know about it, including people that have the car. It can do lots of things.

Joe Rogan:        Once Reddit gets a hold of it, everyone’s going to know.

Elon Musk:        If you search for it on the internet you will find out, but people don’t know that they should even search for it.

Joe Rogan:        Oh, well, they do now.

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        Yes.

Elon Musk:        There are so many things about the Model X, and the Model S, and the Model 3, that people don’t know about. We should probably do a video or something to explain it because I have close friends of mine and I say, “Do you know the car can do this?” And they’re like, “Nope”.

Joe Rogan:        Do you want to do a video though? Do you like the fact that some people don’t know?

Elon Musk:        No, I think it’s probably not … We should tell people.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, probably.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        That would help your product. I mean like it’s not like you don’t sell enough of them. You sell almost too many of them, right?

Elon Musk:        I mean I think a Tesla is the most fun thing you could possibly buy ever. That’s what it’s meant to be. Our goal is to make … It’s not exactly a car. It’s actually a thing to maximize enjoyment, make maximum fun.

Joe Rogan:        Okay. Electronic. Like big screen. Laptop. Ridiculous speed. Handling. All that stuff.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. And we’re going to put video games in it.

Joe Rogan:        You are?

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        It that wise?

Elon Musk:        Well ….

Joe Rogan:        What kind of video games?

Elon Musk:        Well, you won’t be able to drive while you’re playing the video game. For example we were just putting the Atari Emulator, ROM emulator in it. So it will play Missile Command and Lunar Lander and a bunch of other things.

Joe Rogan:        Ooh, that sound cool.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. It’s pretty fun.

Joe Rogan:        I like that.

Elon Musk:        And we improved the interface of Missile Command because it’s too hard with the old track bulb. So there’s a touch screen version of Missile Command, so you have a chance.

Joe Rogan:        You have an old car, don’t you? Don’t you have an old Jaguar?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, I do. ’61 series 1 E-Type Jaguar.

Joe Rogan:        I love cars.

Elon Musk:        It’s great.

Joe Rogan:        I love old cars.

Elon Musk:        The only two gasoline cars I have are that, and a Ford Model T that a friend of mine gave me. That’s my only two gasoline cars.

Joe Rogan:        Is the Ford Model T all stocked. Oh, there’s your car. Ooh, look at that.

Elon Musk:        I have the convertible.

Joe Rogan:        That is a glorious car.

Elon Musk:        Soft top.

Joe Rogan:        God that’s good-looking car.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Is that yours?

Elon Musk:        It’s not mine. It’s extremely close to mine. But I don’t have a front license plate on mine.

Joe Rogan:        Oh, it’s a beautiful car. They nailed that.

Elon Musk:        Mine looks like that.

Joe Rogan:        God, they nailed that.

Elon Musk:        That’s what mine looks like. Maybe that is mine.

Joe Rogan:        There’s certain iconic shapes. And there’s something about those cars, too. They’re not as capable, not nearly as capable as like a Tesla, but there’s something really satisfying about the mechanical aspect, of like feeling the steering, and the grinding of the gears, and the shifting. There’s something about those that’s extremely satisfying even though they’re not that competent. I have a l993 Porsche 964. It’s like a lightweight … It’s an RS America. It’s not very fast, not in comparison to a Tesla or anything like that. But thing about it is, it’s mechanical. You can feel everything. It gives you this weird thrill, like you’re on this clinky ride and there’s all this feedback. There’s something to that, right?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. My E-Type is basically no electronics.

Joe Rogan:        So you like that but you also like electronics?

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Like your Tesla, it’s like that far end of electronics.

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        Drives itself.

Elon Musk:        It’s driving itself better every day. We’re about to release the software that will enable you to just turn in on and it will drive from highway on-ramp to highway exit, do lane changes, overtake other cars, go from one interchange to the next. If you get on, say the 405 and get off 300 miles later and go through several highway interchanges and just overtake other cars and hook into the nav system.

Joe Rogan:        And you’re just meditating. Om.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        While your car’s just traveling. Om.

Elon Musk:        It’s kind of eerie. It’s kind of eerie.

Joe Rogan:        What did you think when you saw that video of that dude falling asleep behind the wheel. I’m sure you’re seen it. The one in San Francisco. He’s like right outside of San Jose. Dude’s out cold, like this. And the car is in bumper to bumper traffic, moving along. You’ve seen it, right?

Elon Musk:        Yeah. Yeah. We changed the software. That’s I think an old video. We changed the software where if you don’t touch the wheel it will gradually slow down and put the emergency lights on and wake you up.

Joe Rogan:        Oh, that’s hilarious. That’s hilarious. Can you choose what voice wakes you up?

Elon Musk:        Well, it sort of honks.

Joe Rogan:        Oh, it honks.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        You should be like, “Wake up, fuck face. You’re endangering your fellow humans.”

Elon Musk:        We could gently wake you up with a sultry voice.

Joe Rogan:        Ah, that would be good. Like something with a Southern accent. “Hey, wake up.”

Elon Musk:        “Wake up, sunshine.”

Joe Rogan:        “Hey, sweetie.”

Elon Musk:        Exactly.

Joe Rogan:        “Won’t you wake up?”

Elon Musk:        You could pick what you want.

Joe Rogan:        Like Siri. Yeah, I’d choose the Australian girl for Siri. I like her voice. It’s my favorite.

Elon Musk:        Do you want it seductive?

Joe Rogan:        I like Australian.

Elon Musk:        What flavor? So you want it to be angry? It could be anything.

Joe Rogan:        Do you want those Australian prison lady jeans. Now when you program something like that in, is this in response to a concern or is it your own … Do you look at it and go, “Hey, they shouldn’t just be able to fall asleep. Let’s wake them up.”

Elon Musk:        Yeah. It’s like, we were like, people are falling asleep, we’ve got to do something about that.

Joe Rogan:        Right, but when you first released it, you didn’t consider it, right? You’re just like, “No one’s going to just sleep.”

Elon Musk:        People fall asleep in cars all the time.

Joe Rogan:        All the time.

Elon Musk:        And crash. At least our car doesn’t crash. That’s better. It’s better not to crash. Imagine if that guy had fallen asleep in a gasoline car. They do it all the time.

Joe Rogan:        For sure.

Elon Musk:        And they would crash into somebody.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah.

Elon Musk:        In fact, the thing that really got me to … It was like, “Man, we’d better get autopilot going, get it out there” was a guy was in an early Tesla driving down the highway and he fell asleep. And he ran over a cyclist and killed him. It’s like, “Man, if we had autopilot, he might have fallen asleep, but he wouldn’t have run over that cyclist.”

PART 2 OF 5 ENDS [01:04:04]

Elon Musk:        … sleep, but at least he wouldn’t run over that cyclist.

Joe Rogan:        So how did you implement it? Like, did you just use cameras-

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        … programmed with the system, so that if it sees images, it slows down? And how much time do you … Is the person who’s in control of it allowed to program how fast it goes?

Elon Musk:        Yes. Yeah, you can program it to be more or less … like more conservative, or like more aggressive driver, and you can say what speed you want it to … what speed is okay.

Joe Rogan:        I know you have Ludicrous mode. Do you have douchebag mode?

Elon Musk:        Well, in-

Joe Rogan:        It just cuts people off.

Elon Musk:        Well, for lane changes, it’s tricky, because if you’re in like LA, unless you’re pretty aggressive, it’s hard to change lanes sometimes.

Joe Rogan:        It’s hard to be satnam. It’s hard to be namaste while out here in LA.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        If you want to hit that Santa Monica Boulevard off-ramp.

Elon Musk:        I mean, you got to be a little pushy.

Joe Rogan:        You got to be a little pushy, yeah, especially-

Elon Musk:        On the freeway.

Joe Rogan:        … when people are angry.

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        People that are angry, they don’t want to let you in. They speed up.

Elon Musk:        Sometimes, you know, I think people overall are pretty nice on the highway, even in LA, but sometimes they’re not.

Joe Rogan:        Do you think the neural link will help that? Clink.

Elon Musk:        Probably.

Joe Rogan:        Everybody be locked in together, this hive mind.

Elon Musk:        Tunnels will help it. We won’t have traffic.

Joe Rogan:        That’ll help a lot.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        How many of those can you put in there?

Elon Musk:        Nice thing about tunnels-

Joe Rogan:        [crosstalk 01:05:29] for everybody?

Elon Musk:        Nice thing about tunnels is you can go 3D, so you can go many levels.

Joe Rogan:        Right, until you hit hell.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, but you could have 100 levels of tunnel, no problems.

Joe Rogan:        Jesus Christ. I don’t want to be on 99. Imagine being on the 99th, negative 99 floors? Hoo.

Elon Musk:        This is one of the fundamental things people don’t appreciate about tunnels, is it’s not like roads. The fundamental issue with roads is that you have a 2D transport system and a 3D living and workspace environment, so you’ve got all these tall buildings, or concentrated work environments, and then you want to go into this 2D transport system, which-

Joe Rogan:        Hugely inefficient.

Elon Musk:        … pretty low density, because cars are spaced out pretty far. So that obviously is not going to work. You’re going to have traffic, guaranteed. But if you can go 3D on your transport system, then you can solve all traffic. You can either go 3D up, with a flying car, or you can go 3D down with tunnels. You can have as many tunnel levels as you want, and you can arbitrarily relieve any amount of traffic. You can go further down with tunnels than you can go up with buildings. You can go 10,000 feet down if you want. I wouldn’t recommend it, but-

Joe Rogan:        What was that movie with what’s his face, with Bradley … Not Bradley Cooper. No, what the fuck’s his name? Batman. Who was Batman?

Jamie:              Christian Bale?

Joe Rogan:        Christian Bale, where they fought dragons, him and Matthew McConaughey. They went down deep into the Earth. How deep can you go-

Elon Musk:        I don’t think that was Batman.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, it was. It was-

Elon Musk:        Batman fought dragons underground?

Joe Rogan:        No, it wasn’t Batman, but it was Christian Bale.

Jamie:              Yeah, Reign of Fire.

Joe Rogan:        Reign of Fire.

Elon Musk:        Okay.

Joe Rogan:        You never saw that?

Elon Musk:        No.

Joe Rogan:        Terrible movie. Terrible movie, but good. Terrible but good at the same time.

Elon Musk:        I wouldn’t recommend drilling super far down. The Earth is a big-

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, but you get real deep, it gets hot, right?

Elon Musk:        … molten … We’re-

Joe Rogan:        Yeah.

Elon Musk:        Earth is a giant ball of lava with a thin crust on the top, which we think of as like the surface, this thin crust, and it’s mostly just a big ball of lava. That’s Earth. But 10,000 feet’s not a big deal.

Joe Rogan:        Have you given any consideration whatsoever to the flat Earth movement?

Elon Musk:        I think that’s a troll situation.

Joe Rogan:        Oh, it’s not. No, it’s not. You would like to think that because you’re a super genius, but I, as a normal person, I know there’s people way dumber than me, and they really, really believe. They watch YouTube videos, which go on uninterrupted and spew out a bunch of fucking fake facts, very eloquently and articulately, and they really believe. These people really believe.

Elon Musk:        I mean, if it works for them, sure. Fine.

Joe Rogan:        It’s weird, though, right, that in this age, where there’s ludicrous mode in your car, goes 1.9 seconds zero to 60.

Elon Musk:        It’s 2.2.

Joe Rogan:        2.2? Which one’s 1.9? The Roadster?

Elon Musk:        The next-generation Roadster, standard edition.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah. I’m on top of this shit.

Elon Musk:        That’s without-

Joe Rogan:        Standard edition?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, it’s without the performance package.

Joe Rogan:        What? Performance package?

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        What the fuck do you need?

Elon Musk:        We’re going to put rocket thrusters on it.

Joe Rogan:        For real?

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        What are they going to burn?

Elon Musk:        Nothing. Ultra high pressure compressed air.

Joe Rogan:        Whoa. Just air?

Elon Musk:        Cold gas thrusters.

Joe Rogan:        Now, do you have to have air tanks, or-

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        … are they sucking air out of … Okay.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, it’s an electric pump. Pump it up to like 10,000 PSI.

Joe Rogan:        And how fast are we talking, zero to 60?

Elon Musk:        How fast do you want to go?

Joe Rogan:        I want to go instantaneously.

Elon Musk:        We could make it just fly-

Joe Rogan:        I want to go back in time.

Elon Musk:        I could make it fly.

Joe Rogan:        You could make it fly?

Elon Musk:        Sure.

Joe Rogan:        Do you anticipate that as being … I mean, you were talking about the tunnels and then flying cars. Do you really think that’s going to be real?

Elon Musk:        It’s too noisy, and there’s too much airflow. So, the final issue with flying cars … I mean, if you get one of those toy drones, think of how much … how loud those are, and how much air they blow. Now imagine if that’s like 1,000 times heavier. It’s not going to make your neighbors happy. Your neighbors are not going to be happy if you land a flying car in your backyard.

Joe Rogan:        It would be very helicopter-like.

Elon Musk:        Or on your roof. They’re just really going to be like, “What the hell? That was annoying.”

Joe Rogan:        Yeah.

Elon Musk:        You can’t even … If you want a flying car, just put some wheels on a helicopter.

Joe Rogan:        Is there a way around that? Like, what if they figure out some sort of magnetic technology, like all those Bob Lazar type characters were thinking, that was a part of the UFO technology they were doing at Area 51? Remember, didn’t they have some thoughts about magnetics?

Elon Musk:        Nope.

Joe Rogan:        No, bullshit?

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        Really?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, there’s a fundamental momentum exchange with the air. So you must … You must accelerate … You have a mass and you have gravitational acceleration, and mass times … Your mass times gravity must equal the mass of airflow times the acceleration of that airflow, to have a neutral force.

Joe Rogan:        So it’s impossible to get around-

Elon Musk:        MG equals MA, and then you won’t move. But if MG is greater than MA, you will go down. And if MA is greater than MG, you will go up. That’s how it works.

Joe Rogan:        There’s just no way around that?

Elon Musk:        There is definitely no way around it.

Joe Rogan:        There’s no way to create some sort of a magnetic something or another, that allows you to float?

Elon Musk:        Technically, yes. You could have a strong enough magnet, but that magnet would be so strong that you would create a lot of trouble.

Joe Rogan:        It would just suck cars up into your car? Just pick up axles and shit-

Elon Musk:        I mean, you’d have to repel off of either a material on the ground or in a really nutty situation, off of Earth’s gravitational field, and somehow make that incredibly light. But that magnet would cause so much destruction, you’d be better off with a helicopter.

Joe Rogan:        So, if there was some sort of magnet road, like you have two magnets, and they repel each other … If you had some sort of a magnet road that was below you, and you could travel on that magnet road, that would work?

Elon Musk:        Yes. Yes, you could have a magnet road.

Joe Rogan:        A magnet road. Is that too ridiculous?

Elon Musk:        No, it would work-

Joe Rogan:        Cement’s pretty ridiculous too, right?

Elon Musk:        You could do that. I would not recommend it.

Joe Rogan:        There’s a lot of things I don’t recommend. I don’t recommend smoking.

Elon Musk:        I would super not recommend that. Not wise, I think.

Joe Rogan:        No?

Elon Musk:        No.

Joe Rogan:        Magnet roads?

Elon Musk:        No. No. No, definitely not. Definitely not. That would cause a lot of trouble.

Joe Rogan:        So you’ve put some time and consideration into this other than … You know, instead of … Like, my foolishly rendered thoughts. So you think that tunnels are the way to do it?

Elon Musk:        Oh, it’ll work for sure.

Joe Rogan:        That’ll work?

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        And these tunnels that you’re building right now, these are basically just like test versions of this ultimate idea that you have?

Elon Musk:        You know, it’s just a hole in the ground.

Joe Rogan:        Right. We played videos of it, where the idea is that-

Elon Musk:        It’s just a hole in the ground.

Joe Rogan:        … you’re going to drop that hole in the ground. There’s a sled on it, and the sled goes very fast, like 100 miles an hour plus?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, you can go real fast. You can go fast as you want. And then if you want to go long distances, you can just draw the air out of the tunnel, make sure it’s real straight.

Joe Rogan:        Draw the air out of the tunnel?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, so a vacuum tunnel, because the … And then, depending on how fast you want to go, you could either use wheels or you could use air bearings, depending upon the ambient pressure in the tunnel, or you could maglev it, if you want to go super fast.

Joe Rogan:        So a magnet road?

Elon Musk:        Yes, but underground magnet roads-

Joe Rogan:        Underground magnet road.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, otherwise you’re going to really create a lot of trouble, because there’s metal things.

Joe Rogan:        Oh, so magnet roads is the way to go, just underground.

Elon Musk:        If you want to go really fast underground, you would be maglev in a vacuum tunnel.

Joe Rogan:        Mag in a vacuum tunnel-

Elon Musk:        Magnetic levitation in a in a vacuum tunnel-

Joe Rogan:        … with rocket launchers.

Elon Musk:        Pardon?

Joe Rogan:        With rocket launchers.

Elon Musk:        No, I would not recommend putting any-

Joe Rogan:        Come on, bro.

Elon Musk:        … exhaust gas in the tunnel.

Joe Rogan:        Oh, okay. I see what you’re saying, because then the air-

Elon Musk:        Because then you’d have to pump it out.

Joe Rogan:        … will be gone. Right, you’ll have to pump it out, and you probably have a limited amount of air in the first place. Like, how much can you breathe? Do you have to pump oxygen into these cubicles, or these tubes?

Elon Musk:        No, you’d have like a pressurized pod. It’d be like a little tiny, underground spaceship, basically.

Joe Rogan:        Like an airplane. Because you have air in the airplane. It’s not getting new air in.

Elon Musk:        It is.

Joe Rogan:        It is?

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        They have like a little hole?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, they have a pump.

Joe Rogan:        Really?

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        So it gets it from the outside?

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        Wow. I didn’t know that.

Elon Musk:        Airplanes have it easy, because essentially, they’re pretty leaky, but-

Joe Rogan:        Jesus.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, but as long as the air pump is working at a decent speed … They have backup pumps.

Joe Rogan:        Oh.

Elon Musk:        They’ll have like three pumps, or four pumps, or something, and then that … Then it exhausts through the outflow valve, and in through whatever seals are not sealing quite right. Usually the door doesn’t seal quite right on a plane, so there’s a bit of leakage around the door, but the pumps exceed the outflow rate, and then that sets the pressure in the cabin.

Joe Rogan:        Now, have you ever looked at planes and gone, “I could fix this. I just don’t have the time.”

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Too busy making-

Elon Musk:        I have a design for a plane.

Joe Rogan:        You do?

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        A better design?

Elon Musk:        I mean, probably. I think it is, yes.

Joe Rogan:        Who have you talked to about this?

Elon Musk:        I’ve talked to friends.

Joe Rogan:        Friends?

Elon Musk:        Friends, and-

Joe Rogan:        I’m your friend.

Elon Musk:        … girlfriends, and-

Joe Rogan:        You could tell me. What do you got? What’s going on?

Elon Musk:        Well, I mean the exciting thing to do would be some sort of electric, vertical takeoff and landing, supersonic jet of some kind.

Joe Rogan:        Vertical takeoff and landing meaning no need for a runway, just shoot up straight in the air, and …

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        Ooh. How would you do that? I mean, they do that on some military aircraft, correct?

Elon Musk:        Yes. The trick is that you have to transition to level flight, and then you … The thing that you would use for vertical takeoff and landing is not suitable for high speed flight.

Joe Rogan:        So you have two different systems? Vertical takeoff-

Elon Musk:        I’ve thought about this quite a lot.

Joe Rogan:        … and landing system-

Elon Musk:        I’ve thought about this quite a lot.

Joe Rogan:        Okay.

Elon Musk:        The interesting thing about an electric plane is that you want to go as high as possible, but you need a certain energy density in the battery pack, because you have to overcome gravitational potential energy. Once you’ve overcome gravitational potential energy and you’re at a high altitude, the energy you use in cruise is very low, and then you can recapture a large part of the gravitational potential energy on the way down. So you really don’t need any kind of reserve fuel, if you will, because you have the energy of height, gravitational potential energy. This is a lot of energy.

Elon Musk:        So, once you can get high … Like, the way to think about a plane is it’s a force balance. So it’s a force balance. So, a plane that is not accelerating is a neutral force balance. You have the force of gravity, you have the lift force of the wings, then you’ve got the force of the whatever thrusting device, the propeller, or turbine, or whatever it is, and you’ve got the resistance force of the air.

Elon Musk:        Now, the higher you go, the lower the air resistance is. Air density drops exponentially, but drag increases with the square, and exponential beats a square. The higher you go, the faster you will go for the same amount of energy, and at a certain altitude, you can go supersonic with less energy per mile, quite a lot less energy per mile, than an aircraft at 35,000 feet, because it’s just a force balance.

Joe Rogan:        I’m too stupid for this conversation.

Elon Musk:        It makes sense, though.

Joe Rogan:        No, I’m sure it does. Now, when you think about this new idea of designing … When you have this idea about improving planes, are you going to bring this to somebody? Are you just … Chuck this around?

Elon Musk:        Well, I have a lot on my plate.

Joe Rogan:        Right. That’s what I’m saying. I don’t know how you do what you do now, but if you keep coming up with these … But it’s got to be hard to pawn these off on someone else either, like, “Hey, go do a good job with this vertical takeoff and landing system that I want to implement to regular planes.”

Elon Musk:        The electric airplane isn’t necessary right now. Electric cars are important.

Joe Rogan:        We need some sort of-

Elon Musk:        Solar energy is important. Stationary storage of energy is important. These things are much more important than creating electric supersonic VTOL. Also, the planes naturally … You really want that gravitational energy density for an aircraft, and this is improving over time. So, you know, it’s important that we accelerate the transition to sustainable energy. That’s why electric cars … It matters whether electric cars happen sooner or later.

Elon Musk:        You know, we’re really playing a crazy game here with the atmosphere and the oceans. We’re taking vast amount of carbon from deep underground and putting this in the atmosphere. This is crazy. We should not do this. It’s very dangerous. So we should accelerate the transition to sustainable energy. I mean, the bizarre thing is that obviously, we’re going to run out of oil in the long term. You know, there’s only so much oil we can mine and burn. It’s tautological. We must have a sustainable energy transport and energy infrastructure in the long term. So we know that’s the endpoint.

Elon Musk:        We know that. So why run this crazy experiment, where we take trillions of tons of carbon from underground, and put it in the atmosphere and oceans? This is an insane experiment. It’s the dumbest experiment in human history. Why are we doing this? It’s crazy.

Joe Rogan:        Do you think this is a product of momentum, that we started off doing this when it was just a few engines, a few hundred million gallons of fuel over the whole world, not that big of a deal, and then slowly but surely, over a century, it got out of control, and now it’s not just our fuel, but it’s also … I mean, fossil fuels are involved in so many different electronics, so many different items that people die. There’s just this constant desire for fossil fuels, constant need for oil, without consideration of the sustainability.

Elon Musk:        You know, the thing is, like oil, oil, coal, gas, that’s the easy money. It’s the easy money.

Joe Rogan:        Have you heard about clean coal? The president’s been tweeting about it. It’s got to be real. Clean coal, all caps. Did you see? He used all caps. Clean coal.

Elon Musk:        Well, you know, it’s very difficult to put that CO2 back in the ground. It doesn’t like being in solid form, takes a lot of energy-

Joe Rogan:        Have you thought about something like that? Like, some sort of a filter, giant building-sized filter, sucks carbon out of the atmosphere? Is that possible?

Elon Musk:        No, it’s not possible.

Joe Rogan:        No?

Elon Musk:        No.

Joe Rogan:        No.

Elon Musk:        Nope, definitely not.

Joe Rogan:        So we’re fucked.

Elon Musk:        No, we’re not fucked. I mean, this is quite a complex question. You know, we’re really just … The more carbon we take out of the ground and add to the atmosphere, and a lot of it gets permeated into the oceans, the more dangerous it is. Like, I don’t think right now … I think we’re okay right now. We can probably even add some more, but the momentum towards sustainable energy is too slow. Like, there’s a vast base of industry, vast transportation system … Like, there’s two-and-a-half billion cars and trucks in the world. And the new car and truck production, if it was 100% electric, that’s only about 100 million per year, so it would take … If you could snap your fingers and instantly turn all cars and trucks electric, it would still take 25 years to change the transport base to electric. Makes sense, because how long does a car or truck last before it goes into the junkyard and gets crushed? About 20 to 25 years.

Joe Rogan:        Is there a way to accelerate that process, like some sort of subsidies, or some encouragement from the government, financially?

Elon Musk:        Well, the thing that is going on right now is that there is an inherent subsidy in any oil-burning device, any power plant or car, is fundamentally consuming the carbon capacity of the oceans and atmosphere. I’ll just say atmosphere for shirt. So, you can say like, “Okay, there’s a certain probability of something bad happening past a certain carbon concentration in the atmosphere,” so there’s some uncertain number where if we put too much carbon in the atmosphere, things overheat, oceans warm up, ice caps melt, ocean real estate becomes a lot less valuable, you know, everything’s under water.

Elon Musk:        But it’s not clear what that number is, but it’s definitely … The scientists would all … It’s really quite … The scientific consensus is overwhelming. Overwhelming. I mean, I don’t know any serious scientist, actually zero, literally zero, who don’t think that we have quite a serious climate risk that we’re facing. So, there’s fundamentally a subsidy occurring with every fossil fuel burning thing, power plants, aircraft, car, frankly even rockets. I mean, rockets use a … They burn fuel, but with rockets, there’s just no other way to get to orbit, unfortunately, so it’s the only way.

Elon Musk:        But with cars, there’s definitely a better way, with electric cars, and to generate the issue, do so with photovoltaics, because we’ve got a giant thermonuclear reactor in the sky, called the sun. It’s great. It sort of shows up every day, very reliable. So if you can generate energy from solar panels, store it with batteries, you could have energy 24 hours a day. And then you can send it to the poles, or near, to the north, with high voltage lines. Also, northern parts of the world tend to have a lot of hydro power as well.

Elon Musk:        Anyway, all fossil fuel powered things have an inherent subsidy, which is their consumption of the carbon capacity of the atmosphere, and oceans. So, people tend to think like, “Why should electric vehicles have a subsidy?” But they’re not taking into account that all fossil fuel burning vehicles fundamentally are subsidized by the environmental cost to Earth. But nobody’s paying for it. We are going to pay for it, obviously. In the future, we will pay for it. It’s just not paid for now.

Joe Rogan:        Now, what is the bottleneck in regards to electric cars, and trucks, and things like that? Is it battery capacity?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, we’ve got to scale up production, got to make the car compelling, make it better than gasoline or diesel cars.

Joe Rogan:        Make it more efficient in terms of like the distance it can travel without refueling.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, got to be able to go far enough, recharge fast-

Joe Rogan:        And your Roadster, you’re anticipating 600 miles? Is that correct?

Elon Musk:        Yeah. Yeah, we-

Joe Rogan:        What does that-

Elon Musk:        Yeah, 600 mile range.

Joe Rogan:        Is that right now? Like, have you driven one 600 miles now?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, we could totally make one right now that would do 600 miles, but the thing is, it’s too expensive. Like, the car’s got to-

Joe Rogan:        How much more so?

Elon Musk:        Well, you know, it’ll just have a 200 kilowatt hour battery pack, and you can go 600 miles, as long as-

Joe Rogan:        Like, versus what do you have now?

Elon Musk:        330 mile range, but that’s plenty for most people.

Joe Rogan:        330 mile range, and what is that in terms of kilowatts?

Elon Musk:        Well, that would be for a Model S, 100 kilowatt hour pack will do about 330 miles, maybe 335. Some people have hyper-miled it to 500 miles.

Joe Rogan:        Hyper-miled it? What does that mean?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, just like go-

Joe Rogan:        45 miles an hour or something?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, like 30 miles an hour or something. It’s like on level ground, with you pump the tires up really well and go on a smooth surface, and you can go for a long time. But you could definitely comfortably do 300 miles.

Joe Rogan:        Is there-

Elon Musk:        This is fine for most people. Usually, 200 or 250 miles is fine. 300 miles is you don’t even think about it, really.

Joe Rogan:        Is there any possibility that you could use solar power, that solar powered, one day … Especially in Los Angeles. I mean, as you said about that giant nuclear reactor a million times bigger than Earth just floating in the sky, is it possible that one day, you’ll be able to just power all these cars, just on solar power? I mean, we don’t ever have cloudy days. If we do, there’s three of them.

Elon Musk:        Well, the surface area of a car is … Without making the car really blocky, or having some-

Joe Rogan:        Like a G-Wagon?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, and just like having a lot of surface area, where maybe solar panels fold out or something-

Joe Rogan:        Like your E Class. That’s what we need-

Elon Musk:        The E-Type?

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, the Jaguar E-Type, with the giant long hood. That could be a giant solar panel.

Elon Musk:        Well, at the beginning of Tesla, I did want to have this unfolding solar panel thing, that you’d press a button and it’d just unfold these solar panels and recharge your car in the parking lot.

Joe Rogan:        Ah.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, we could do that, but I think it’s probably better to just put that on your roof.

Joe Rogan:        Right.

Elon Musk:        And then it’s going to just be facing the sun all the time, because like-

Joe Rogan:        What car had that on the roof?

Elon Musk:        Otherwise, your car could be in the shade. You know, it could be in the shade, could be in a garage, or something like that.

Joe Rogan:        Right.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Didn’t a Fisker have that on the roof? The Fisker Karma new generation for … I believe it was only for the radio? Was that correct?

Elon Musk:        Yeah. I mean, I think it could recharge like two miles a day or something like-

Joe Rogan:        Did you laugh when they started blowing up when they got hit with water? Do you remember what happened?

Elon Musk:        They got … What?

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, they had a dealership, or-

Elon Musk:        Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan:        The Fisker Karmas were parked-

Elon Musk:        Was that like with the flood in Jersey?

Joe Rogan:        Yes, yes. When the hurricane came in, they got overwhelmed with water and they all started exploding. There’s fucking great video of it. Did you watch the video?

Elon Musk:        I didn’t watch the video, but I did see-

Joe Rogan:        Oh, if I was you-

Elon Musk:        I saw a picture of the aftermath.

Joe Rogan:        … I would be naked, lubed up, watch that video, laughing my ass off. They all blow up. They got wet and they blew up. That’s not good.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, we made our battery waterproof so that doesn’t happen.

Joe Rogan:        Smart move.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, there’s a guy in Kazakhstan, that … I think it was Kazakhstan, that he just boated through a tunnel, underwater tunnel, like a flooded tunnel, and just turned the wheels to steer, and pressed the accelerator, and it just floated through the tunnel, and he steered around the other cars. Like-

Joe Rogan:        That’s amazing.

Elon Musk:        It’s on the internet.

Joe Rogan:        What happens if your car gets a little sideways? Like, if you were driving in snow. Like, what if your autopilot is on and you’re in like Denver, and it snows out, and your car gets a little sideways? Does it correct itself?

Elon Musk:        Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Does it know how to-

Elon Musk:        It’s got great traction control.

Joe Rogan:        But does it know how to, like, correct?

Elon Musk:        Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Do you know how like when your ass-end kicks out-

Elon Musk:        Sure.

Joe Rogan:        … you know how to counter-steer?

Elon Musk:        Oh, yeah. No, it’s really good.

Joe Rogan:        It knows how to do it?

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Whoa.

Elon Musk:        It’s pretty crazy.

Joe Rogan:        That’s pretty crazy.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        So like if you’re going sideways, it knows how to correct itself?

Elon Musk:        It generally won’t go sideways.

Joe Rogan:        It won’t?

Elon Musk:        No.

Joe Rogan:        Why not?

Elon Musk:        It will correct itself before it goes sideways.

Joe Rogan:        Even in black ice?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, there’s videos where you could see the car be-

Joe Rogan:        That alone.

Elon Musk:        Traction control system is very good. It makes you feel like superman. It’s great. You feel like you can … It will make you feel like this incredible driver.

Joe Rogan:        I believe it.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Now how do you program that?

Elon Musk:        We do our testing on like an ice like in Sweden.

Joe Rogan:        Oh, really?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, in like Norway, and Canada, and a few other places.

Joe Rogan:        Porsche does a lot of that too.

Elon Musk:        New Zealand as well.

Joe Rogan:        They do a lot of their … They do some of their driver training school on these frozen surfaces, so you’re just … The car’s going sideways whether you like it or not, and you have to learn how to slide into corners, and how to adjust.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. Well, electric cars have really great traction control, because the reaction time is so fast. So, with a gasoline car, you’ve got a lot of latency. It takes a while for the engine to react and for the … But for electric motors, incredibly precise. That’s why you can imagine … Like, if you had a printer or something, you wouldn’t have a gasoline engine printer. That would be pretty weird, or like a surgical device. It’s going to be an electric motor on the surgical device, on the printer. Gasoline engine’s going to be just chugging away. It’s not going to have the reaction time.

Elon Musk:        But to an electric motor, it’s operating at the millisecond level, so it can turn on and off traction, within like inches of getting on the … Like, let’s say drive over a patch of ice. It’ll turn traction off and then turn it on a couple of inches, right after the ice. Like, with a little patch of ice, because in the frame of the electric motor, you’re moving incredibly slowly. You’re a snail. You’re just moving so slowly, because it can see at 1,000 frames a second. So it’s like say one Mississippi. It just thought about things 1,000 times.

Joe Rogan:        So it’s realized that your wheels are not getting traction, it understands there’s some slippery surface that you’re driving on, and it makes adjustments in real time.

Elon Musk:        Yes. In milliseconds.

Joe Rogan:        That would be so much safer than a regular car.

Elon Musk:        Yes, it is.

Joe Rogan:        Just that alone, for loved ones, you’d want them to be driving your car.

Elon Musk:        Yes, the-

Joe Rogan:        I’m on board. Fuck motors. Dude, fuck regular motors.

Elon Musk:        The S, X, and 3 have the lowest probability of injury of any cars ever tested by the US government.

Joe Rogan:        Whoa.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, but it’s pretty crazy. You know, people still sue us. Like, they’ll have some accident at 60 miles an hour, where they just twisted an ankle, and they sue … Like, they would be dead in another car. They still sue us.

Joe Rogan:        But that’s to be expected, isn’t it?

Elon Musk:        I guess to be expected.

Joe Rogan:        Do you take that into account with like the same sort of fatalistic undertones, just sort of go, “Eh, you got to just let it go. This is what people do.”

Elon Musk:        I’ll tell you, I’ve got a-

Joe Rogan:        It is what it is.

Elon Musk:        … quite a lot of respect for the justice system. Judges are very smart, and they see … So far, I’ve found judges to be very good at justice, because like, what … And juries are good too. Like, they’re actually quite good. You know, people … You know, you read about occasional errors in the justice system. Let me tell you, most of the time, they’re very good.

Joe Rogan:        I think-

Elon Musk:        And you know, the guy I mentioned, that fell asleep in the car, and he road over a cyclist, and that was what encouraged me to get autopilot out as soon as possible, that guy sued us.

Joe Rogan:        He sued you, for falling asleep?

Elon Musk:        Yes, he … I’m not kidding. He blamed it on the new car smell.

Joe Rogan:        What?

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        He blamed him falling asleep on your new car smell. There’s somewhere there’s a lawyer-

Elon Musk:        This is a real thing that happened.

Joe Rogan:        Somewhere there’s a lawyer that thought that through in front of his laptop before he wrote that up.

Elon Musk:        Yes. He got a lawyer, and he sued us, and the judge was like, “This is crazy. Stop bothering me. No.”

Joe Rogan:        Thank god.

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        Thank god. Thank god there’s a judge out there with a brain.

Elon Musk:        I’ll tell you, judges are very good.

Joe Rogan:        Some of them. What about that judge that sent those boys up the river in Pennsylvania, who was selling those kids out? You know about that story?

Elon Musk:        No.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, judge was selling young boys to prisons. He was-

Elon Musk:        What?

Joe Rogan:        Like literally, yeah. Literally under bribes for … He was-

Elon Musk:        Was this an elected judge or-

Joe Rogan:        He was-

Elon Musk:        Because some places, you have a judge that’s actually a politician.

Joe Rogan:        No, he was an elected judge. This is a very famous story. He-

PART 3 OF 5 ENDS [01:36:04]

Joe Rogan:        No. He was an elected judge. This is a very famous story.

Elon Musk:        Okay.

Joe Rogan:        He’s in jail right now, I think for the rest of his life. And he put away … He would take a young boy would so something like steal something from a store and he would put them in detention for five years. Something ridiculously egregious. And they investigated his history and they found out that he was literally being paid off. Was it by private prisons? Is that what the deal was? There was some sort of … But anyway, this judge is-

Joe Rogan:        Two judges.

Joe Rogan:        Two judges?

Joe Rogan:        Two judges. Kids for cash scandal is what it’s called. 2008, yeah. Common please judges, so I think they are elected.

Joe Rogan:        And who was paying them?

Joe Rogan:        Oh …

Joe Rogan:        Someone … It was proven to the point where they’re in jail now.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        That someone was paying them to put more asses in the seats in these private prisons.

Joe Rogan:        A million dollar payment to put them in the youth centers builder [crosstalk 01:36:58]-

Joe Rogan:        A million dollar payment?

Joe Rogan:        Yeah.

Elon Musk:        I do think it’s this private prisons’ thing is creating a bad incentive.

Joe Rogan:        It’s dark. Right.

Elon Musk:        Yes, but that judge is in prison.

Joe Rogan:        Thank God.

Elon Musk:        Yes, but for people who think perhaps the justice system consists entirely of judges like that, I want to assure you this is not the case. The vast majority of judges are very good.

Joe Rogan:        I agree.

Elon Musk:        And they care about justice, and they could have made a lot more money if they wanted to be a trial lawyer, and instead they cared about justice and they made less money because they care about justice. And that’s why they’re judges.

Joe Rogan:        I feel that same way about police officers.

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        I feel like there’s so many interactions with so many different people with police officers that the very few that stand out that are horrific, we tend to look at that like this is evidence that police are all corrupt, and I think that’s crazy.

Elon Musk:        Most police are very honest.

Joe Rogan:        Yes.

Elon Musk:        And military personnel that I know are very honorable, ethical people and much more honorable and ethical than the average person. That’s my impression.

Joe Rogan:        I agree. That is my impression as well.

Elon Musk:        And that’s not to suggest we be complacent and assume everyone’s honest and ethical. And obviously if somebody is given a trusted place in society such as being a police officer or a judge and they are corrupt then we must be extra vigilant against such situations, and take action. But we should not think that this is somehow broadly descriptive of people in that profession.

Joe Rogan:        I could agree more. I think there’s also an issue with one of the things that happens with police officers, prosecutors, and anyone that’s trying to convict someone or arrest someone is that it becomes a game, an end game people want to win. And sometimes people cheat.

Elon Musk:        Yes. Yes. If you’re a prosecutor you should not always want to win. There are times when you should like okay, I just should not want to win this case and then just pass on that case. Sometimes people want to win too much, that is true. I think also it becomes tough. If you’re a district attorney you tend to see a lot of criminals, and then your view of the world can get negatively … have a negative … you can have a negative view of the world because you’re just interacting with a lot of criminals. But actually most of society does not consist of criminals. And I actually had this conversation at dinner several years ago with a district attorney. I was like, “Man, it must sometimes seem pretty dark because, man, there’s some terrible human beings out there.” And he was like, “Yep.” He was dealing with some case which consisted of a couple of old ladies that would run people over somehow for insurance money. And it was rough. I was like, “Wow, that’s pretty rough.”

Elon Musk:        It’s hard to maintain faith in humanity if you’re a district attorney, but you know, it’s only a few percent of society that are actually bad. And then if you go to the worst .1% of society, or the worst one in 1,000 to one in one million … How bad is the millionth worst person in the United States? Pretty damn bad, damn evil. The millionth … One in one million of evil is so evil people could not even conceive of it. But there’s 330 million in the United States, so that’s 330 people out there somewhere. By the same token, there’s also 330 who are incredible angels and unbelievable good human beings.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah.

Elon Musk:        On the other side.

Joe Rogan:        But because of our fear of danger, we tend to … our thought tend to gravitate towards the worst case scenario.

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        And we want to frame that. And it’s one of the real problem with prejudice, whether it’s prejudice towards different minorities or prejudice towards police officers, or anything, we want to look at the worse case scenario and say, “This is an example of what this is all about.” And you see that even with people who the frame genders. Some men frame women like that. They get ripped of by a few women and they decide all women are evil. Some women get fucked over by a few men, all men are shit. And this is very toxic.

Elon Musk:        It is.

Joe Rogan:        And it’s also a very unbalanced way to viewing the world and it’s very emotionally based, and it’s based on your own experience, your own anecdotal experience. And it can be very influential to the people around you, and it’s just a dangerous way … it’s a dangerous thought process and pattern to promote.

Elon Musk:        It is. It is a very dangerous pattern. I really think people should give other people the benefit of the doubt and assume that they’re good until proven otherwise. And I think really, most people are actually pretty good people. Nobody’s perfect.

Joe Rogan:        They have to be. If you think the vast numbers of us that are just interacting with each other constantly, we have to be better than we think we are.

Elon Musk:        Yes, I [crosstalk 01:42:13]

Joe Rogan:        There’s no other way.

Elon Musk:        Here are all these weapons, but how many times … Nobody’s presumably tried to murder you in your [crosstalk 01:42:18]-

Joe Rogan:        Nobody yet.

Elon Musk:        Yes, nobody’s put this rifle [crosstalk 01:42:20]. The swords right there.

Joe Rogan:        Now there’s fucking fake flame thrower here, not a flame thrower. Now we’ve got a real problem. I’m going to put it on that side, too. I’m going to leave it for the guests. I’m like, look man, if I say something that fucked up it’s right there.

Elon Musk:        It’ll liven things up for sure. It guaranteed to make any party better.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah. Well, that’s the armed civilization theory that an armed community is a safe and polite community. You ever been in Texas? It’s kind of true.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        People in Texas are super polite and everyone’s got a gun.

Elon Musk:        Yes. Don’t make somebody angry. Don’t know what’s going to happen.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, it’s not a good move. Piss people off and everybody can have a gun. You’re better off to just let that guy get in your lane.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. yeah. We got a big test site in central Texas.

Joe Rogan:        Oh, yeah?

Elon Musk:        In Waco.

Joe Rogan:        Oh, beautiful.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, SpaceX in McGregor. It’s about 15 minutes away from Waco.

Joe Rogan:        That’s close to where Ted Nugent lives.

Elon Musk:        It is?

Joe Rogan:        Shout out to Ted Nugent.

Elon Musk:        Okay, cool. Yeah, we have lots of fire and loud explosions and things.

Joe Rogan:        I bet.

Elon Musk:        And people, they’re cool with it.

Joe Rogan:        They don’t give a fuck out there.

Elon Musk:        They are very supportive.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, you can buy fireworks where your kids go to school.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. It’s dangerous.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, but it’s free.

Elon Musk:        It’s free.

Joe Rogan:        There’s something about [crosstalk 01:43:44] Texas that’s very enticing because of that. It is dangerous, but it’s also free.

Elon Musk:        Right. Yeah, I like Texas actually.

Joe Rogan:        Well, I prefer it over places that are more restrictive, but more liberal because you could always be liberal. Just because things are free and just because you have a certain amount of right wing type characters it doesn’t mean you have to be that way.

Elon Musk:        No.

Joe Rogan:        And honestly, there’s a lot of those people that are pretty fucking open minded and let you do whatever you want to do.

Elon Musk:        Right.

Joe Rogan:        As long as you don’t bother them.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan:        That’s my whole … Right now with the way we’re able to communicate with each other today and how radically different it is than generations past is that we all just … the dust settles and we all realize, like what you were saying that most people are good.

Elon Musk:        Most people are good.

Joe Rogan:        The vast majority.

Elon Musk:        Yes. I think you should give people the benefit of the doubt for sure.

Joe Rogan:        I think you’re right. You know what could help that? Mushrooms.

Elon Musk:        Mushrooms.

Joe Rogan:        Don’t you think?

Elon Musk:        They’re delicious.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, right. They’re good for you, too. All of them. All kinds of them. What do you see in terms of when you think about the future of your companies, what do you see as bottle necks? Want some more of these?

Elon Musk:        Sure. Thank you.

Joe Rogan:        What do you see in terms of bottle necks of things that are holding back innovation? Is it regulatory commissions and people that don’t understand the technology that are influencing policy? What could potentially be holding you guys back right now? Is there anything that you would change?

Elon Musk:        Yeah. That’s a good question. I wish politicians were better at science. That would help a lot.

Joe Rogan:        That’s a problem.

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        There’s no incentive for them to be good at science.

Elon Musk:        There isn’t. Actually, they’re pretty good at science in China, I have to say.

Joe Rogan:        Are they?

Elon Musk:        Yeah. The mayor of Beijing has, I believe, an environmental engineering degree, and the deputy major has a physics degree. I met them. Shanghai is really smart.

Joe Rogan:        You’re up on technology. What do you think about this government policy of stopping use of Wall Way phones and there something about the worry about spying. From what I understand from real tech people, they think it’s horse shit. Like phones.

Elon Musk:        I don’t know. I don’t know.

Joe Rogan:        The government said don’t buy Wall Way phones. Are you up on that at all? No? Should we just abandon this idea?

Elon Musk:        I guess if you have top secret stuff then you want to be pretty careful about what hardware you use, but most people do not have top secret stuff. Nobody really cares what porn you watch. Nobody actually cares.

Joe Rogan:        And if they that’s on them.

Elon Musk:        National spy agencies do not care, do not give a rat’s ass what porn you watch. They do not care. So, what secrets does a national spy agency gave to learn from the average citizen? Nothing.

Joe Rogan:        That’s the argument against the narrative and the argument by a lot of these tech people is that the real concern is that these companies like Wall Way are innovating at a radical pace. And they’re trying to stop them from integrating into our culture and letting this … Right now they’re the number two cell phone manufacturer in the world. Samsung’s number one, Wall Way’s number two, Apple is now number three. They surpassed Apple as number two. And the idea is that this is all taking place without them having any foothold whatsoever in American. There’s no carriers that have their phones. You have to buy their phones unlocked through some third party, and then put … The worry is that these are somehow or another controlled by the Chinese government. The Communist Chinese government is going to distribute these phones. And I don’t know if it’s the worry is economic influence, or that they’re have too much power. I don’t know what it is. Are you paying attention at all at any of this?

Elon Musk:        Not really.

Joe Rogan:        No.

Elon Musk:        I don’t think we should worry too much about Wall Way phones. Maybe our national security agencies shouldn’t have Wall Way phones. Maybe that’s a question mark, but I think for the average citizen it doesn’t matter. Pretty sure the Chinese government does not care about the goings on of the average American citizen.

Joe Rogan:        Is there a time where you think that there will be no security? Will be impossible to hold back information? That whatever bottleneck will let go. We’re going to give in. That whatever bottleneck between privacy and ultimate innovation will have to be bridged in order for us to achieve the next level of technological proficiency that we’re just going to abandon it. And they’ll be no security. No privacy.

Elon Musk:        Do people want privacy? ‘Cause they seem to put everything on the internet-

Joe Rogan:        Well, right now-

Elon Musk:        … practically.

Joe Rogan:        … they’re confused, but when you’re talking about your neuro link and this idea that one day we are going to be able to share information, we’re going to be some sort of a thing that’s symbiotically connected.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, I think we really need to worry about security in that situation for sure.

Joe Rogan:        And when-

Elon Musk:        That’s a security paramount.

Joe Rogan:        Sure. But also what we will be is we’ll be so much different. Our concerns about money, about status, about … All these things will seemingly go by the wayside if we really become enlightened. If we really become artificially enlightened by some an AI interface where we have this symbiotic relationship with some new internet type connection to information what happens then? What is important and what is not important? Is privacy important when we’re all gods?

Elon Musk:        I think with things that we think are important to keep private right now we probably will not think are important-

Joe Rogan:        Shame, right? Information, right? What are you hiding? Emotions? What are we hiding?

Elon Musk:        I think … I don’t know. Maybe it’s embarrassing stuff.

Joe Rogan:        Right, embarrassing stuff.

Elon Musk:        But there’s actually … I think people … There’s not that much that’s kept private that is actually relevant that other people would actually care about. You think other people care about it, but they don’t really care about it, and certainly governments don’t.

Joe Rogan:        Well, some people care about it, but then it gets weird when it gets exposed. Like Jennifer Lawrence when those naked pictures of her got exposed. I think in some ways people liked her more.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        They realized well, she’s just a person that’s just a girl who likes sex, and is just alive and has a boyfriend, and sends him messages, and now you get to look into it. You probably shouldn’t have, but somebody let it go, and they put it online. and they’re, “All right.”

Elon Musk:        She seems to be doing okay.

Joe Rogan:        She’s a person. She’s just you, and me, and it’s the same thing. She’s just in some weird place where she’s on a 35 foot tall screen with music playing every time she talks.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. I’m sure she’s not happy about-

Joe Rogan:        No, she’s fine.

Elon Musk:        … it.

Joe Rogan:        No.

Elon Musk:        But she’s clearly doing fine.

Joe Rogan:        But once this interface is fully realized where we really do become something far more powerful in terms of our cognitive ability, or our ability to understand irrational thoughts and mitigate them, and that we’re all connected in some insane way, what are our thoughts on wealth, our thoughts on social status? How many of those just evaporate in our need for privacy? Maybe our need for privacy will be the ultimate bottleneck that we’ll have to surpass.

Elon Musk:        I think the things that we think are important now will probably not be important in the future. But there will be things that are important, there just are different things.

Joe Rogan:        What would be more important?

Elon Musk:        There might be some of ideas potentially. I don’t think Darwin’s going away.

Joe Rogan:        Right.

Elon Musk:        Darwin’s going to be there. Darwin will be there forever.

Joe Rogan:        Forever, yeah.

Elon Musk:        It would just be a different arena. A different arena.

Joe Rogan:        A digital arena.

Elon Musk:        Different arena. Darwin’s not going away.

Joe Rogan:        What keep you up at night?

Elon Musk:        Well, it’s quite hard to run companies, especially car companies, I should say. It’s quite challenging.

Joe Rogan:        The car business is the hardest one of all the things you do?

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        Because it’s a consumer oriented business as opposed to SpaceX?

Elon Musk:        Not that SpaceX … SpaceX is no walk in the park, but a car company, it’s very difficult to keep a car company alive. It’s very difficult. There’s only two car companies in the history of American car companies that haven’t gone bankrupt and that’s Ford and Tesla. That’s it.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, Ford rode out that crazy storm, huh? They’re the only ones.

Elon Musk:        By the skin of their teeth.

Joe Rogan:        Shout out to the mustang. Yeah, by the skin of their teeth. That is interesting, right?

Elon Musk:        Same with Tesla. We barely survived.

Joe Rogan:        How close did you get to folding?

Elon Musk:        Very close. We … 2008 is not a good a time to be a car company, especially a startup car company, and especially an electric car company. That was stupidity squared.

Joe Rogan:        And this is when you had those cool roadsters with the T-top.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        With the target top?

Elon Musk:        Yeah. We had … It was a highly modified [inaudible 01:54:10] Chasity. The body was all completely different. By the way, it was super dumb strategy that we actually did because we-

Joe Rogan:        Why was it dumb?

Elon Musk:        It was based on two false premises. One false premise was that’s we’d be able to cheaply convert the lotus least and use that as a car platform, and that we would be able to use technology from this little company called AC Propulsion for the electric drive train and battery. As the AC Propulsion technology did not work in production and we ended up using none of it in the long term, none of it. We had to redesign everything. And then once you add a battery pack and an electric motor, so car got heavier. It got 30% heavier, invalidated the entire structure, all the crash structure. Everything had to be redone. I think it had less than 7% of the parts were common with any other device including cars or anything.

Joe Rogan:        Less than 7%?

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        Everything? Including tires and wheels? Bolts? Breaks?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, even every-

Joe Rogan:        Steering wheel? The seat?

Elon Musk:        The steering wheel was … I think the steering wheel was almost the same. Yes, the wind screen, wind screen.

Joe Rogan:        Different?

Elon Musk:        No, I think the windscreen was the same.

Joe Rogan:        Same?

Elon Musk:        Yes. I think we were able to keep the wind screen.

Joe Rogan:        Less than 7%, so that’s basically-

Elon Musk:        Every body panel was different. The entire structure was different. We couldn’t use the HVAC system, the air conditioner. It was a belt driven air conditioner.

Joe Rogan:        Oh, right.

Elon Musk:        So, now we needed something that was electrically driven. We needed a new AC compressor.

Joe Rogan:        And all that takes away from the battery life as well right?

Elon Musk:        Yeah. We needed a small, highly efficient air conditioning system that fit in a tiny car, and was electrically powered and not belt driven. It was very difficult.

Joe Rogan:        How much did those weigh? Those cars? The roadster?

Elon Musk:        I think it was about 2,700 pounds.

Joe Rogan:        That’s still very light.

Elon Musk:        27 … It depends on which version. 2,650 to 2,750 pounds. Something like that.

Joe Rogan:        And what was the weight distribution?

Elon Musk:        It was about … Well, there were different versions of the car, so it was about 55 on the rear because it was-

Joe Rogan:        That’s not bad.

Elon Musk:        … rear bias.

Joe Rogan:        Right, but not bad considering a 911, which is one of the most popular sports cars of all time. Heavy rear end bias.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. The 911, lack of a joke, is like the [inaudible 01:56:47] despite Newton not being on their side. If you’re fighting Newton it’s very difficult.

Joe Rogan:        Well-

Elon Musk:        You’ve got this … The moments of inertia on a 911 don’t make any sense.

Joe Rogan:        They do once you understand them. Once you understand them-

Elon Musk:        You don’t want to hang the engine off the ass because it is not a wise move.

Joe Rogan:        You don’t want to let up on the gas when you’re in a corner.

Elon Musk:        The problem with something that’s where the engine is mounted over the rear axil or off the rear axil towards the rear it that your pulling amount of inertia is fundamentally screwed. You cannot solve this. It’s unsolvable. You’re screwed. Pulled amount of inertia is you’re screwed. R

Joe Rogan:        Right.

Elon Musk:        Seriously, if you spun the car like a top that’s your [inaudible 01:57:32] moment of inertia. You’re just … I promised I wouldn’t swear on this, by the way.

Joe Rogan:        Really? To who?

Elon Musk:        My friend.

Joe Rogan:        Tell that friend to go fuck himself. Who told you not to swear?

Elon Musk:        I friend.

Joe Rogan:        That’s not a good friend.

Elon Musk:        Yes. [crosstalk 01:57:46]

Joe Rogan:        … realize you’re fucking Elon Musk. You can do whatever you want, man. If you ever get confused, call me.

Elon Musk:        I’ll swear in private.

Joe Rogan:        Okay.

Elon Musk:        Swear up a storm.

Joe Rogan:        Just say frickin’. It’s a fun way, those old house moms, wives and shit that have children. “Oh, this frickin’ thing.”

Elon Musk:        Yeah, but anyway the Porsche, it’s incredible how well Porsche has given that its physics, the moments of inertia aren’t so messed up to actually still make it work well is incredible.

Joe Rogan:        If you know how to turn into the corner once you get used to the feeling of it there’s actual benefits to it. There are some benefits.

Elon Musk:        I enjoy … The car I had before Tesla was a 911.

Joe Rogan:        Oh, okay.

Elon Musk:        That was-

Joe Rogan:        Nine nine seven or six?

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Nine nine seven?

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah. That’s a great car, man.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. Particularly on the Porsche when they had the variable vanes, the turbo, and it didn’t have the turbo lag, that was great. That was really great. The turbo lag is you floor it, phone home, call your mom.

Joe Rogan:        The older ones, right?

Elon Musk:        About an hour later the car accelerates.

Joe Rogan:        And super dangerous, too, because then the wheels start spinning. Yeah. There’s something fun about it, though, feeling that rear weight kicking around. And again-

Elon Musk:        It’s great.

Joe Rogan:        … it’s not efficient.

Elon Musk:        I had a good feel to it.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, I agree.

Joe Rogan:        But that’s what I was talking about earlier about that little car that I have, the ’93 911. It’s not fast. It’s not the best handling car, but it’s more satisfying than any other car I have because it’s so mechanical. Everything about it crackles and bumps and it gives you all this feedback. I take it to the Comedy Store because when I get there I feel like my brain is just popping and it’s on fire. It’s like a strategy for me now that I really stopped driving other cars there. I drive that car there just for the brain juice. Just for the interaction.

Elon Musk:        You should try Model S P100D.

Joe Rogan:        I’ll try it.

Elon Musk:        It’ll blow your mind.

Joe Rogan:        Okay.

Elon Musk:        And your skull.

Joe Rogan:        Okay. Tell me what to order, I’ll order it.

Elon Musk:        Model S P100D.

Joe Rogan:        Okay, Jamie, write it down.

Elon Musk:        That’s the car that I drive.

Joe Rogan:        Okay, okay. I’ll get with the car you drive. Okay.

Elon Musk:        It will blow your mind out of your skull.

Joe Rogan:        How far can I … I believe you. How car can I drive? How far can I go?

Elon Musk:        About 300 miles.

Joe Rogan:        That’s good. For L.A. regular days that’s good.

Elon Musk:        You’ll never notice the battery.

Joe Rogan:        Never?

Elon Musk:        Never.

Joe Rogan:        How hard is it to get one of the crazy plugs installed in your house? That difficult?

Elon Musk:        No, it’s super easy. It’s like-

Joe Rogan:        Didn’t you-

Elon Musk:        … it’s like a dryer plug. It’s like a dryer outlet.

Joe Rogan:        Didn’t you come up with some crazy tiles for your roof that are solar paneled?

Elon Musk:        Yeah. Yeah, I have it on my roof right now, actually. I’m just trying it out. The thing, it takes a while to test roof stuff because roofs have to last a long time, so you want your roof to last at least 30 years.

Joe Rogan:        Could you put it over a regular roof?

Elon Musk:        No. So, there’s two versions. There’s the solar panels you put on a rood. It depends on whether your roof’s new or old. If your roof’s new you don’t want to replace the roof. You want to put solar panels on the roof, so that’s retro fit. And then we’re trying to make the retro fit panels look real nice. But then the new product we’re coming out with is if you have a roof that’s either your building a house or you’re going to replace a roof anyway then make the tiles have solar cells embedded in the tiles. It’s quite a tricky thing ’cause you want to not see the solar cell behind the glass tile, do you have to really work with the glass, and the various coatings, and layers so that you don’t see the solar cell behind the glass, otherwise it doesn’t look right. So, it’s really tricky-

Joe Rogan:        There is it. Jamie put it up there.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Man, that looks good. Is there a-

Elon Musk:        See, if you look closely you can … If you zoom in you can see the cell, but if you zoom out you don’t see the cell.

Joe Rogan:        Right. Well, it looks cool though.

Elon Musk:        See?

Joe Rogan:        Yeah.

Elon Musk:        That’s hard.

Joe Rogan:        Invisible solar cell.

Elon Musk:        It’s really hard because you have to have sunlight go through, but when it gets reflected back out it hides the fact that there’s a cell there.

Joe Rogan:        Now are those available to the consumer right now?

Elon Musk:        Well, we have a, I think-

Joe Rogan:        Those on that roof right there?

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        That’s amazing. Oh, that looks good.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Ooh. I like that.

Elon Musk:        That one’s hard.

Joe Rogan:        So, you’ve got that fake Spanish looking thing.

Elon Musk:        That’s French light.

Joe Rogan:        That’s White people in Connecticut smoking pipes. Look at that one. That’s bad ass, dude.

Elon Musk:        Those all actually work.

Joe Rogan:        I believe you. So, the solar panels that are on that house that we just looked at, is that sufficient to power the entire home?

Elon Musk:        It depends on your energy on how efficient-

Joe Rogan:        Expenditure?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, yeah. So, generally yes. I would say it’s probably for most it’s going to vary, but anywhere from more than you need to maybe half. Call it half to 1.5 of the energy that you need. Depending on how much roof you have relative to living space-

Joe Rogan:        And how ridiculous you are with the TV.

Elon Musk:        TV’s no problem. Air conditioners-

Joe Rogan:        Blenders.

Elon Musk:        Air conditioning.

Joe Rogan:        Air conditioning?

Elon Musk:        Air conditioning is the problem. If you have an efficient air conditioner and depending on how … Are you air conditioning rooms when they don’t need to be air conditioned, which is very common because it’s a pain in the neck. It’s like programming your VCR. It’s just blinking 12, so people just like, “The hell with that. I’m just going to make it this temperature all day long.”

Joe Rogan:        Right. They don’t have a smart home where if you’re in the room then it stays cool. Right.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. It should predict when you’re going to be home and then cool the rooms that you’re likely to use with a little but of intelligence. We’re not talking about genius home here. We’re just talking elementary basic stuff. If you could hook that into the car as you’re coming home… There’s no point in cooling the home, keeping the home really cool when you’re not there, but it can tell that you’re coming home it’s going to cool it to the right temperature right when you get there.

Joe Rogan:        Do you have an app that works with your solar panels or anything like that?

Elon Musk:        Yeah. Yeah, we do. But we need to hook it in to the air conditioning to really make the air conditioning work.

Joe Rogan:        Have you thought about creating an air conditioning system? I know you have. Trick question.

Elon Musk:        I cannot answer that questions about future or potential products.

Joe Rogan:        Okay. Let’s just let it go. we’ll move on to the next thing.

Elon Musk:        But that would be an interesting idea.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, I would say. Radiant heating, all that. Good ideas. When you think about the efficiency of these homes and you think about implementing solar power, and battery power, and is there anything else that people are missing? Is there any other … I just saw a smart watch that is powered by the heat of the human body. Some new technology.

Elon Musk:        It’s able to fully power that way?

Joe Rogan:        I don’t know if it’s fully or if its … This watch right here, this is a Casio. It’s called a Protek, and it’s an outdoors watch, and it’s solar powered. So, it has the ability to operate for a certain amount of time on solar. So, if you have it exposed it could function for a certain amount of time on solar.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, well, there’s the self weighted watches watches where it’s got a weight in the watch and as you move your wrist the weight moves from one side to the other and it winds the watch up. That’s a pretty cool thing.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, yeah. Well, it’s amazing that Rolex’s, that it’s all done mechanically. There’s no batteries in there. There’s no nothing.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, you could do the same thing, create a little charger that’s based on wrist movement. It really depends on how much energy your watch uses.

Joe Rogan:        You know what’s fucked up about that, though? We accept a certain amount of fuckery with those watches. I brought my watch … I have a Rolex that my friend Lorenzo gave and I brought it to the watch store and I said, “This thing’s always fast.” I said, “It’s always after a couple months its five minutes fast.” And they go, “Yep.” They go, “Yeah.”

Elon Musk:        Really?

Joe Rogan:        It’s just what it does.

Elon Musk:        Okay.

Joe Rogan:        and I go, “Hold on, so you’re telling me that it just is always going to be fast?” They’re like, “Yeah. It’s just like every few months you’ve got to reset it.”

Elon Musk:        Seems like the should recalibrate that thing.

Joe Rogan:        They can’t. They tried. They say every few months, whether it’s four months, or five months, or six months, it’s going to be a couple minutes fast.

Elon Musk:        Okay, it seems like they should really recalibrate that because it’s always fast [crosstalk 02:06:31]-

Joe Rogan:        You should figure that shit out. Right.

Elon Musk:        … you could just delete those minutes.

Joe Rogan:        You need to fucking kick down the door at Rolex and go, “You bitches are lazy.”

Elon Musk:        It’s amazing that you can keep time mechanically on a wrist watch with these tiny little gears.

Joe Rogan:        It’s amazing. The whole luxury watch market is fascinating. I’m not that involved in terms like I don’t buy them. I bought them as gifts, but I don’t buy them for myself, but when I look at them online there’s million dollar watches out there now that they have little rotating moons and stars. They live … Look at this thing. How much is that one, Jamie?

Joe Rogan:        Right around-

Joe Rogan:        These are fucking preposterous.

Elon Musk:        I like gears.

Joe Rogan:        I love them.

Elon Musk:        Yeah. I think they’re beautiful.

Joe Rogan:        But there’s some of these people are just taking right in the ass. They’re buying these watches for $750,000.00. I’m like, “Yo, that’s a Timex, son. Nobody knows.” It’s not any better than some Casio that you could just buy online … Look at that, though. Here’s the thing, if you’re a person that doesn’t just want to know the time, you want craftsmanship, you want some artisan’s touch, you want innovation in terms of a person figuring out how gears and cogs all line up perfectly to every time it turns over its basically a second. That’s just … There’s art to that. It’s-

Elon Musk:        Yeah, I agree.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, it’s not just telling time. I like this watch a lot, but if it got hit by a rock I wouldn’t be sad. It’s just a watch. It’s …

PART 4 OF 5 ENDS [02:08:04]

Joe Rogan:        … but if it got hit by a rock, I wouldn’t be sad.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        It’s just a watch. It’s a mass produced thing that runs on some quartz battery. But those things, there’s art to that.

Elon Musk:        No, I agree. It’s beautiful.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, love it.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        There’s something amazing about it because it represents the human creativity. It’s not just an electronic innovation. There’s a person’s work in that.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        You don’t have a watch on?

Elon Musk:        No.

Joe Rogan:        Ever?

Elon Musk:        I used to have a watch.

Joe Rogan:        What happened?

Elon Musk:        My phone tells the time.

Joe Rogan:        That’s a good point. What if you lose your phone?

Joe Rogan:        Wait, hold on.

Elon Musk:        True.

Joe Rogan:        Let me guess, you are a no case guy?

Elon Musk:        That’s correct.

Joe Rogan:        Ooh.

Elon Musk:        Living on the edge. Living on the edge without a case.

Joe Rogan:        Neil deGrasse Tyson, Neil deGrasse Tyson was in here last week. I marveled at his ability to get through life without a case.

Elon Musk:        That’s right.

Joe Rogan:        He takes his phone and he flips it in between his fingers, like a soldier would do with his rifle.

Elon Musk:        Really?

Joe Rogan:        He just rolls that shit in between his fingers.

Elon Musk:        Okay.

Joe Rogan:        Marvelous.

Elon Musk:        Wow.

Joe Rogan:        He says that’s the reason why they do it. He said, “When you look at someone who has a rifle, why would they do that? Why would they flip it around like that?”

Elon Musk:        Right.

Joe Rogan:        So that when it goes to drop, they have it in their hand. They catch it quickly. That’s what he does with his phone. He’s just flipping his phone around all the time. I got that in Mexico. I was hoping it holds joints.

Elon Musk:        Does it do anything? It seems to open.

Joe Rogan:        No. It’s just a hole.

Elon Musk:        Could store things in there.

Joe Rogan:        Try to put a joint in there, close it. You can put like one, one blunt. One, that seems pretentious, you know? That’s the idea behind it. I bought it when I was in Mexico because I figured it would be a good size to hold joints. Guess not.

Elon Musk:        So is that a joint, or is it a cigar?

Joe Rogan:        No, it’s marijuana inside of a tobacco.

Elon Musk:        Oh, okay. So it’s like part tobacco, part-

Joe Rogan:        You never had that?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, I think I tried one once.

Jamie:              Come on, man.

Joe Rogan:        You probably can’t because of stockholders, right?

Elon Musk:        I mean, it’s legal, right?

Joe Rogan:        Totally legal.

Elon Musk:        Okay.

Joe Rogan:        How does that work? Do people get upset at you if you do certain things?

Joe Rogan:        There’s tobacco and marijuana in there. That’s all it is. The combination of tobacco and marijuana is wonderful. First turned onto it by Charlie Murphy, and then reignited by Dave Chappelle. There you go.

Jamie:              Plus whiskey.

Elon Musk:        Ha ha, exactly.

Joe Rogan:        Perfect, balances it out.

Elon Musk:        Alcohol is a drug, it’s been grandfathered in.

Joe Rogan:        Well, it’s not just a drug. It’s a drug that gets a bad rap because if you just have a little, it’s great.

Elon Musk:        Fine.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, a little sip here and there, and your inhibitions are relaxed, and it shows your true self, and hopefully you’re more joyous and friendly and happy, and everything’s good.

Joe Rogan:        The real worry is the people that can’t handle it, like the real worry about people that can’t handle cars that can go zero to 60 in 1.9 seconds, or anything.

Joe Rogan:        Have you ever considered something that, imagine if one day, everyone has a car that’s on the same at least technological standard as one of your cars? Everyone agrees that the smart thing to do is not just to have bumpers, but to perhaps have some sort of a magnetic repellent device; something, some electro magnetic field around the cars. And as cars come close to each other, they automatically radically decelerate because of magnets or something.

Elon Musk:        Well, I mean, our cars brake automatically.

Joe Rogan:        Brake, yeah.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        When they see things.

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        But like a physical barrier.

Elon Musk:        Well, the wheels work pretty well as brakes.

Joe Rogan:        The wheels do?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, they work pretty well. Decelerate at 1.1 to 1.2 G’s, that kind of thing.

Joe Rogan:        Is your concern that one day all your cars would be on the road, and then there will still be regular people with regular cars, 20-30 years from now, that’ll get in the mix, and be the main problem?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, I think it’d be sort of like … there was a time of transition where there were horses and gasoline cars on the road at the same time. Must’ve been pretty weird.

Joe Rogan:        Oh, that would be the weirdest.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Elon Musk:        And horses were tricky, you know, back when Manhattan had like 300,000 horses, you figure like horse lives 15 years, you got 20,000 horses dropping dead every day, or every year I should say. Every year there’s 20,000 horses, if there’s 300,000 horses and a 15 year lifespan.

Joe Rogan:        Back in the Gangs of New York days. That movie?

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Elon Musk:        It’s a lot of dead horses. You need a horse to move the horse.

Joe Rogan:        Right.

Elon Musk:        They’ll probably get pretty freaked out if they have to move a dead horse.

Joe Rogan:        Do you think they know what’s going on?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, I mean it’s gotta be like, pretty weird.

Joe Rogan:        No, I would imagine.

Elon Musk:        Why am I dragging this dead horse around, and I’m a horse? I don’t like it.

Joe Rogan:        Do you ever stop and think about your role in civilization? Do you ever stop and think about your role in the culture? Because me, as a person who never met you until today, when I think of you, I’ve always thought of you as being this weirdo super inventor dude, who just somehow or another keeps coming up with new shit. But there’s not a lot of you out there. Everybody else seems to be, I mean obviously, you make a lot of money, and there’s a lot of people that make a lot of money.

Joe Rogan:        You like that clock?

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Pretty dope, right?

Elon Musk:        This is a great clock.

Joe Rogan:        You want one? I’ll get you one.

Elon Musk:        Sure.

Joe Rogan:        Okay, done.

Elon Musk:        I like weird things like this.

Joe Rogan:        Oh, this is the coolest. It’s TGT promotion. What it says, TGT Studios? TGT Studios?

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        It’s a gentleman who makes all this by hand. Yeah, it’s really cool.

Elon Musk:        My study is filled with weird devices.

Joe Rogan:        Well, get ready for another one.

Elon Musk:        All right.

Joe Rogan:        I’m sending it your way.

Elon Musk:        Cool.

Joe Rogan:        You wanna werewolf too? I’ll hook you up.

Elon Musk:        All right. I’ll take one.

Joe Rogan:        One werewolf, and one clock coming up.

Joe Rogan:        Do you think about your role in the culture? Because me as a person who never met you until today, I’ve always looked at you and like, “Wow, how’s this guy just keep inventing shit?”

Joe Rogan:        How do you keep coming up with all these new devices? Do you ever consider how …

Joe Rogan:        I had a dream once that there was a million Teslas. Instead of like one Tesla, there was a million Teslas.

Elon Musk:        Okay.

Joe Rogan:        Not Tesla the car, but Nikola.

Elon Musk:        Oh, yeah, sure.

Joe Rogan:        And that in his day, there was a million people like him who were radically innovative.

Elon Musk:        Wow.

Joe Rogan:        It was a weird dream, man. It was so strange, and I’ve had it more than once.

Elon Musk:        That would result in very rapid technology innovation, that’s for sure.

Joe Rogan:        It’s one of the only dreams in my life I’ve had more than one time.

Elon Musk:        Okay.

Joe Rogan:        Like where I’ve woken up and it’s in the same dream. I’m in the same dream. In this dream, it’s 1940s, 1950s, but everyone is severely advanced. There’s flying blimps with LCD screens on the side of them, and everything’s bizarre and strange.

Joe Rogan:        It’s stuck with me, obviously it’s just a stupid dream, but for whatever reason, all these years, that stuck with me. It takes one man like Nikola Tesla to have more than 100 inventions that were patents, right? He had some-

Elon Musk:        It’s pretty great.

Joe Rogan:        … pretty fucking amazing ideas.

Elon Musk:        Yes, definitely.

Joe Rogan:        In his day, there was very few people like him.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, that’s true.

Joe Rogan:        What if there was a million?

Elon Musk:        Things would advance very quickly.

Joe Rogan:        Right, but there’s not a million Elon Musks. There’s one motherfucker. Do you think about that, or you just try to not?

Elon Musk:        Hmm.

Elon Musk:        I don’t think you’d necessarily want to be me.

Joe Rogan:        Well, what’s the worst part about you?

Elon Musk:        I don’t think people would like it that much.

Joe Rogan:        Well, most people wouldn’t, but they can’t be you. That’s like some superhero type shit. You wouldn’t wanna be Spider-Man, rather just sleep tight in Gotham City, and hope he’s out there doing his job.

Elon Musk:        It’s very hard to turn it off.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        What’s the hardest part?

Elon Musk:        It might sound great if it’s turned on.

Joe Rogan:        Sleep?

Elon Musk:        But what if it doesn’t turn off?

Joe Rogan:        Now, I showed you the isolation tank, and you’ve never experienced that before?

Elon Musk:        No.

Joe Rogan:        I think that could help you turn it off a little bit, just for the night.

Elon Musk:        Okay.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, just give you a little bit of sleep, little bit of perspective, some magnesium that you get from the water as well, that makes you sleep easier because the water has Epsom salts in it. But maybe some sort of strategy for sacrificing your, not sacrificing, but enhancing your biological recovery time by figuring out a way, whether it’s through meditation or some other ways, to shut off that thing at night.

Joe Rogan:        You must have like a constant stream of ideas that’s running through your head all the time. You getting text messages from chicks?

Elon Musk:        No. I’m getting text messages from friends saying, “What the hell are you doing smoking weed?”

Joe Rogan:        Is that bad for you? It’s legal. It’s government approved.

Elon Musk:        It’s not … I’m not a regular smoker of weed.

Joe Rogan:        How often do you smoke it?

Elon Musk:        Almost never.

Elon Musk:        I don’t actually notice any effect.

Joe Rogan:        Well, there you go. There was a time where, I think it was Ram Dass or someone, gave some Buddhist monk a bunch of acid.

Elon Musk:        Okay.

Joe Rogan:        And he ate it, and it had no effect on him.

Elon Musk:        I doubt that.

Joe Rogan:        I would say that too, but I’ve never meditated to the level that some of these people have, where they’re constantly meditating all day. They don’t have any material possessions, and all of their energy is spent trying to achieve a certain mindset. I would like to cynically deny that. I’d like to cynically say, “They just fucking think the same way I do. They just hang out with flip flops on and make weird noises.”

Joe Rogan:        But maybe, no?

Elon Musk:        I know a lot of people like weed, and that’s fine. But I don’t that it is very good for productivity.

Joe Rogan:        For you?

Elon Musk:        Not for me.

Joe Rogan:        I would imagine that for someone like you, it’s not. Someone like you, it’d be more like a cup of coffee, right? You have a latte?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, it’s more like the opposite of a cup of coffee.

Joe Rogan:        What do you like?

Elon Musk:        It’s like a cup of coffee in reverse.

Joe Rogan:        Oh, weed is?

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        No, I’m saying you would like more, more like what would be beneficial to you, would be like coffee?

Elon Musk:        I like to get things done. I like to be useful. That is one of the hardest things to do, is to be useful.

Joe Rogan:        When you say you like to get things done, in terms of like what-

Elon Musk:        I like to get things done.

Joe Rogan:        … gives you satisfaction? When you complete a project, when something that you invent comes to fruition, and you see people enjoying it? That feeling?

Elon Musk:        Yes. Doing something useful for other people, that I like doing.

Joe Rogan:        That’s interesting, “for other people.”

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Do you think that that is maybe the way you recognize that you have this unusual position in the culture, where you can uniquely influence certain things because of this … I mean, essentially, you have a gift, right?

Elon Musk:        Ha ha.

Joe Rogan:        You would think it was a curse? I’m sure it’s been fueled by many, many years of discipline and learning, but you essentially have a gift. You have this radical sort of creativity engine when it comes to innovation and technology. It’s like, you’re just, you’re going at a very high RPMs.

Elon Musk:        All the time.

Joe Rogan:        What is that like?

Elon Musk:        It doesn’t stop.

Elon Musk:        I don’t know what would happen if I got into a sensory deprivation tank.

Joe Rogan:        Let’s try it.

Elon Musk:        It sounds concerning.

Joe Rogan:        But why?

Elon Musk:        It’s like running the engine with no resistance. That seems-

Joe Rogan:        Is that what it is though? Maybe it’s not.

Elon Musk:        Maybe it’s fine. I don’t know. I’ll try it. I’ll try it.

Joe Rogan:        Have you ever experimented with meditation or anything?

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        What’d you do, or what have you done rather?

Elon Musk:        I mean just sort of sit there and be quiet, and then repeat some mantra, which acts as a focal point. It does still the mind. It does still the mind, but I don’t find myself drawn to it frequently.

Joe Rogan:        Do you that perhaps productivity is maybe more attractive to you than enlightenment? Or even the concept of whatever enlightenment means. What are you trying to achieve when you’re meditating all the time?

Joe Rogan:        With you it seems almost like there’s a franticness to your creativity, that comes out of this burning furnace. In order for you to calm that thing down, you might have to throw too much water on it.

Elon Musk:        It’s like a never ending explosion.

Joe Rogan:        What is it like? Try to explain it to a dumb person like me. What’s goin on in the head?

Elon Musk:        A never ending explosion.

Joe Rogan:        It’s just constant ideas, just bouncing around?

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Damn.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        So when everybody leaves, it’s just Elon, sitting at home, brushing his teeth, just a bunch of ideas bouncing around in your head?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, all the time.

Joe Rogan:        When did you realize that that’s not the case with most people?

Elon Musk:        I think when I was, I don’t know, five or six or something. I thought I was insane.

Joe Rogan:        Why’d you think you were insane?

Elon Musk:        Because it was clear that other people did not … their mind wasn’t exploding with ideas all the time.

Joe Rogan:        So they weren’t expressing it, they weren’t talking about it all day? And you realized, by the time you were five or six, like, Oh, they’re probably not even getting this thing that I’m getting?”

Elon Musk:        No. It was just strange. It was like, “Hmm, I’m strange.” That was my conclusion. I’m strange.

Joe Rogan:        Did you feel diminished by it in any way? Like knowing that this is weird thing, that you really probably couldn’t commiserate with, with other people? They wouldn’t understand you?

Elon Musk:        I hoped they wouldn’t find out because they might put me away or something.

Joe Rogan:        You thought that?

Elon Musk:        For a second, yes.

Joe Rogan:        When you were little?

Elon Musk:        Yeah, I know they put people away. What if they put me away?

Joe Rogan:        When you were little you thought this?

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        Wow.

Joe Rogan:        You thought, “This is so radically different than the people that around me. If they find out I got this stream coming in …”

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Whoa.

Elon Musk:        I was only like five or six.

Joe Rogan:        Do you think this is like, there’s outliers, biologically? I mean there’s people that are seven foot nine, there’s people that have giant hands. There’s people that have eyes that are 20/15 vision. There’s always outliers. Do you feel like you caught this, like you’ve got some, you’re on some weird innovation, creativity, sort of wave, that’s very unusual? You tapped into … just think of the various things you’ve been able to accomplish in a very short amount of time, and you’re constantly doing this. That’s a weird … you’re a weird person, right?

Elon Musk:        Right, I agree.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        What if there’s a million Elon Musks?

Elon Musk:        Well, that would be very, very weird.

Joe Rogan:        Woo! Woo.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, it’d be pretty weird. I agree.

Joe Rogan:        Real weird.

Elon Musk:        Definitely.

Elon Musk:        What if there were a million Joe Rogans?

Joe Rogan:        Oh, there probably is. There’s probably two million.

Joe Rogan:        I mean, I think that’s the case with a lot of folks.

Elon Musk:        My goal is try to do useful things, try to maximize the probability the future’s good, make the future exciting, something you look forward to. With Tesla, I try to make things that people love.

Elon Musk:        How many things can you buy that you really love? That really give you joy? It’s so rare, so rare. I wish there were more things. That’s what we try to do, just make things that somebody loves.

Joe Rogan:        When you think about making things that someone loves, do you specifically think about, like what things would improve people’s experience? What would change the way people interface with life? That would make them more relaxed or more happy? You really think … when you’re thinking about things like that, is that one of your considerations? What could I do that would help people?

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        That maybe they wouldn’t be able to figure out.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, like, what are the set of things that can be done to make the future better? I think that a future where we are a space bearing civilization, and out there among the stars, this is very exciting. This makes me look forward to the future. This makes me want that future.

Elon Musk:        There need to be things that make you look forward to waking up in the morning. You wake in morning, you look forward to the day, forward to the future. A future where we are a space bearing civilization and out there among the stars, I think that’s very exciting. That is a thing we want. Whereas if we knew we would not be a space bearing civilization, but forever confined to Earth, this would not be a good future that would be very sad, I think.

Joe Rogan:        It would be sad-

Elon Musk:        I don’t want the sad future.

Joe Rogan:        … in terms of just the finite lifespan of the Earth itself, and the solar system itself? That even though it’s possibly … how long do they feel like this sun and this solar system’s gonna exist? How many hundreds and millions of years?

Elon Musk:        Well, it’s probably, if you’re saying, “When does the sun boil the oceans?”

Joe Rogan:        Right.

Elon Musk:        About 500 million years.

Joe Rogan:        Is it sad that we never leave because in 500 million years that happens? Is that what you’re saying?

Elon Musk:        No, I just think like if there are two futures, and one future is we’re out there among the stars, the things we read about and see in science fiction movies, the good ones, are true. We have these starships and we’re going to see what other planets are like, and we’re a multi-planet species, and the scope and scale of consciousness is expanded across many civilizations and many planets, and many star systems. This is a great future. This is a wonderful thing to me. That’s what we should strive for.

Joe Rogan:        But, that’s biological travel. That’s cells traveling physically to another location.

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        Do you think that’s definitely where we’re going?

Elon Musk:        No.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, I don’t think so either. I used to think so, and now I’m thinking more likely less than ever. Almost every day, less likely.

Elon Musk:        We can definitely go to the moon and Mars.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah. Do you think that we’ll colonize-

Elon Musk:        And we can go to the asteroid belt, and we can go to the moons of Jupiter, Saturn, we could even get to Pluto.

Joe Rogan:        That’d be the craziest place ever, if we colonized Mars, and re-terraformed it and turned it into like a big Jamaica. Just oceans and-

Elon Musk:        I think we should. I think that it’d be-

Joe Rogan:        I mean imagine-

Elon Musk:        … great. That’d be great. Amazing.

Joe Rogan:        It’s possible, right?

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        We can turn the whole thing into Cancun.

Elon Musk:        Well-

Joe Rogan:        Over time.

Elon Musk:        … it wouldn’t be easy, but yes.

Joe Rogan:        Right.

Elon Musk:        You could warm it up.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, you could warm it up. You could add air. You could get some water there. I mean over time, hundreds of millions of years, or whatever it takes.

Elon Musk:        We’d be a multi-planet species.

Joe Rogan:        That would be amazing.

Elon Musk:        We’d be a multi-planet species, that’s what we wanna be. Great.

Joe Rogan:        If we could legitimately air condition Saturn-

Elon Musk:        I’m pro-human.

Joe Rogan:        Me too. Yeah, me too.

Elon Musk:        I love humanity. I think it’s great.

Joe Rogan:        We’re glad, as a robot, that you love humans because we love you too. We don’t want you to kill us, and eat us.

Elon Musk:        You know, strangely, I think a lot of people don’t like humanity, and see it as a blight, but I do not.

Joe Rogan:        I think one of those, I think part of that is just they’ve been struggling. When people struggle, they associate their struggle with other people. They never internalize their problems. They look to other people as holding them back, and people such, and fuck people. It’s just a never ending cycle, but not always. Again, most people, are really good. Most people, the vast majority.

Elon Musk:        This may sound corny.

Joe Rogan:        It does sound corny.

Elon Musk:        But love is the answer.

Joe Rogan:        It is the answer.

Elon Musk:        Yep.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, it is. It sounds corny because we’re all scared. We’re all scared of trying to love people, being rejected, or someone taking advantage of you because you’re trying to be loving.

Elon Musk:        Sure.

Joe Rogan:        But if we all could just relax, and love each other …

Elon Musk:        It wouldn’t hurt to have more love in the world.

Joe Rogan:        It definitely wouldn’t hurt.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        It’d be great.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, we should do that.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah. I agree, man.

Elon Musk:        Like really.

Joe Rogan:        How you gonna fix that? You have a love machine that you’re working on?

Elon Musk:        No, but probably spend more time with your friends, and less time on social media.

Joe Rogan:        Now deleting social media from your applications, from your phones. Does that give you a ten percent boost to happiness? What do you think the percentage is?

Elon Musk:        I think probably something like that, yeah. That’s about right.

Joe Rogan:        Good ten percent.

Elon Musk:        I mean the only thing I’ve kept is Twitter because I kind of like need some means of getting a message out, you know?

Joe Rogan:        Right.

Elon Musk:        That’s about it, so far so good.

Joe Rogan:        Well, what’s interesting with you, you actually occasionally engage with people on Twitter.

Elon Musk:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        What percentage of that is a good idea?

Elon Musk:        Ha ha ha.

Elon Musk:        Good question.

Joe Rogan:        Probably ten percent, right? It’s hard.

Elon Musk:        It’s mostly, I think it’s on balance more good than bad, but there’s definitely some bad. Hopefully the good outweighs the bad.

Joe Rogan:        Do you ever think about how odd it is, the weird feeling that you get when someone says something shitty to you on Twitter, and you read it? The weird feeling. This weird little negative jolt. It’s like a subjective, negative jolt of energy that you don’t really need to absorb, but you do anyway. “Well, fuck this guy. Fuck him!”

Elon Musk:        There’s a lot of negativity on Twitter.

Joe Rogan:        It is, but it’s a weird, in its form, like the way if you ingest it as if you were like … you try to be like a little scientist, as you’re ingesting it. You’re like, “What? How weird is this that I’m even getting upset at some strange person saying something mean to me?” It’s not even accurate.

Elon Musk:        I mean the vast number of negative comments, for the vast majority, I just ignore them, the vast majority.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah.

Elon Musk:        Every now and again, you’re drawn in. It’s not good.

Joe Rogan:        It’s not good.

Elon Musk:        You make mistakes.

Joe Rogan:        Yes, you can make mistakes.

Elon Musk:        Make some mistakes.

Joe Rogan:        We’re all human. We can make mistakes. Yeah, it’s hard, and people love it when you say something, and you take it back. They’re like, “Fuck you, we saved it forever. We fucking screenshot that shit, bitch. You had that thought! You had that thought!”

Joe Rogan:        You’re like, “Well, I deleted it.”

Joe Rogan:        “Not good enough! You had the thought! I’m better than you. I never had that thought. You had that thought, you piece of shit. Look, I saved it. I put it on my blog.”

Elon Musk:        Yeah, I’m not sure why people think that anyone would think that deleting a tweet makes it go away. It’s like, “Hello, there’s been an internet for a while.”

Joe Rogan:        Well, it’s even like-

Elon Musk:        Anything is forever.

Joe Rogan:        … they don’t want you to be able to delete it because the problem is, if you don’t delete, and you don’t believe it anymore, it’s really hard to say, “Hey, that thing above, I don’t really believe that anymore. I changed the way I view things.”

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        Because people go, “Well, fuck you. I already have that over there. I’m gonna just take that. I’m not gonna pay attention to that shit you wrote underneath.”

Elon Musk:        It’s on your permanent record.

Joe Rogan:        It’s forever, bro, like a tattoo.

Elon Musk:        We’ll put this on your permanent record.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, it’s like a tattoo, you keep it.

Elon Musk:        Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        Well, it’s this thing where there’s a lack of compassion. It’s a lack of compassion issue. People are just like intentionally shitty to each other all the time online, and trying to catch … They’re more trying to catch people doing something that’s arrestable, like a cop trying to get arrests on his record. It’s like they’re trying to catch you with something, more than they’re logically looking at it, thinking it’s a bad thing that you’ve done, or that it’s an idea they don’t agree with so much they need to insult you. They’re trying to catch you.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, it’s way easier to be mean on social media than it is to be in person.

Joe Rogan:        Yes.

Elon Musk:        Way easier.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah.

Joe Rogan:        It’s weird. It’s not a normal way of human interacting. It’s cheating.

Elon Musk:        True.

Joe Rogan:        We’re not supposed to be able to interact so easily with people we’re not looking at.

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        You would never do that. You’d never be so mean to someone looking in their eyes, and if you did you’d feel like shit.

Elon Musk:        Most people.

Joe Rogan:        Yeah, unless you’re a sociopath, you’d feel terrible.

Elon Musk:        Yes.

Joe Rogan:        Elon Musk, this has been a pleasure.

Elon Musk:        Yeah, likewise.

Joe Rogan:        It really has been.

Elon Musk:        It’s been an honor. Thank you for having me.

Joe Rogan:        Thanks for doing this because I know you don’t do a lot of long form stuff like this. I hope I didn’t weird you out, and hope you don’t get mad that you smoked weed. It’s not bad. It’s legal! We’re in California. This is just as legal as this whiskey we’ve been drinking.

Elon Musk:        Exactly.

Joe Rogan:        This is all good, right?

Elon Musk:        Cheers.

Joe Rogan:        Cheers.

Joe Rogan:        Thank you.

Joe Rogan:        Is there any message you would like to put out other than love is the answer because I think you’ve really nailed it with that?

Elon Musk:        No, I think people should be nicer to each other, and give more credit to others, and don’t assume that they’re mean until you know they’re actually mean. Just, it’s easy to demonize people, you’re usually wrong about it. People are nicer than you think. Give people more credit.

Joe Rogan:        I couldn’t agree more. I wanna thank you, not just for all the crazy innovations you’ve come up with, and your constant flow of ideas, but that you choose to spread that idea, which is very vulnerable, but it’s very honest.

Elon Musk:        It’s true.

Joe Rogan:        It resonates with me, and I believe it.

Elon Musk:        It’s true.

Joe Rogan:        I believe it’s true too, so thank you.

Elon Musk:        You’re welcome.

Joe Rogan:        All you assholes out there, be nice. Be nice, bitch.

Joe Rogan:        All right, thank you, everybody. Thank you, Elon.

Elon Musk:        All right, thank you.

Joe Rogan:        Goodnight, everybody.

PART 5 OF 5 ENDS [02:37:02]