Warning: Use of undefined constant youtube - assumed 'youtube' (this will throw an Error in a future version of PHP) in /home/customer/www/joeroganexperience.io/public_html/wp-content/plugins/floating-video/floating_video_plugin.php on line 89

JRE MMA Show #41 – TJ Dillashaw & Duane Ludwig

Joe Rogan:                    You let me know.

Duane Ludwig:             Oh, cool.

Joe Rogan:                    And so-

Duane Ludwig:             [crosstalk 00:00:03].

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    And then we leave it there.

Duane Ludwig:             I think he’d be too nervous, yeah, like you said.

Joe Rogan:                    Boom and we’re live. UFC motherfucking bantamweight champion TJ Dillashaw and Duane Ludwig.

Duane Ludwig:             How are you doing-

Joe Rogan:                    Master Splinter, what’s up buddy? Good to see you man.

Duane Ludwig:             Good to see you.

Joe Rogan:                    You’ve got golf shirts now too. Look at you, you respectable mother fucker.

Duane Ludwig:             I’m 40 now.

Joe Rogan:                    Oh, you got to be respectable.

Duane Ludwig:             Got to step up my game.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

TJ Dillashaw:                 People walk in to the dojo and he’s got to look dressed to the nines, you know, looking like it’s a job.

Duane Ludwig:             But there’s a warning sign on the wall that says ‘Explicit Language.”

Joe Rogan:                    Oh, so you let people know people are going to be swearing up in this bitch.

Duane Ludwig:             Yes, sir. Line up mother fuckers. Let’s go. Down on the mat first though.

Joe Rogan:                    Do you say that when you teach classes? Do you swear when you’re doing your classes?

Duane Ludwig:             Somewhat, I get into it, yeah I’m passionate.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, you are. Yeah. You get fired up.

Duane Ludwig:             Yes. That’s why I don’t teach the kids. We have a separate room for the kids classes and coach Sam Kootz runs that.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s smart man.

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    So you have a children’s program?

Duane Ludwig:             Yes sir.

Joe Rogan:                    Nice. Dude, I love the fact that you take regular classes. I’ve watched you on Instagram. Bantamweight champion of the world, regular classes, with regular people. I see them in there with you like, “Holy shit!”

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    All star struck and weirded out, going through drills.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Man, I love it. Obviously none of these classes are regular though. Even if you’re an average Joe coming off the street, like Duane’s teaching the same shit that I’m doing, you know, but yeah working out with a guy that’s never had a real fight before, I mean, he’ll always remember that. He’ll always get to work out with me, so it’s cool man. I like doing it. Especially at Duane’s gym too, it kind of shows the true love that I have for the system and being in there.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, what kind of fucking sport other than MMA is that even possible.

Duane Ludwig:             Good point.

Joe Rogan:                    Right?

TJ Dillashaw:                 If it’s controlled, yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    [crosstalk 00:01:37], jujitsu you could do that but most people don’t know who the jujitsu guys are, I mean you’re fighting on fucking television all the time.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, it’s almost too easy to have that happen in this work, you know, to where there’s people you shouldn’t be sparring with that it happens, you know, that’s why a controlled environments awesome, that’s why I feel like the small kind of training camps and teams have been so beneficial because you know exactly who you’re working out with and who you’re getting better with, but there are times to work out with the average guys. Not when I’m getting ready for a fight or don’t want to get hurt kind of thing. And then his is a very controlled system when we’re doing dutch drills that you’re not gonna go crazy.

Joe Rogan:                    There’s so many different approaches to training fighters and you obviously have hit, you guys have like the best fighter trainer relationship that I know about because you guys are so tight it’s like you guys are really a team, whereas there’s always some weird animosity with fighters and trainers and the blowups are just like men and women, like when men and women break up and, “You fucking bitch. You fucking.”

Duane Ludwig:             Oh yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Like that makes me so sad when I see fighter, trainer blowouts. When they separate and talk shit about each other like, God, that’s such a bummer.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I think it’s both of them have too big of an ego. One wants to be like the coach maybe coaching the fighter wants to be more popular or whatever it may be. And just the, I don’t know, whenever Duane came in to the gym and as soon as he was there from the first practice I knew we were going to get along. He’s a crazy mother fucker he likes to go hard, competitive and he knows kind of like everything I do.

Joe Rogan:                    But you also have a very well thought out system.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yes sir.

Joe Rogan:                    I was very impressed with just, like, your documentation of your system, how you have all these different things worked out. There’s obviously creativity involved when an actual fight is happening but your system is so well thought out and so comprehensive.

Duane Ludwig:             I feel that’s what I’m supposed to be doing is organizing the CAS of a fight so that the regular person can understand what’s happening. When I was fighting and training fighting was scary and I was very scared of it, so I wanted to make sure I understood what was going on, so I just started mapping it out and a lot of that came from sensei Ruten because he had the number system of three was jab, cross, hook, rather than three just being left hook. So he sparked the initial interest to just start categorizing everything, put things into a system, and it helped out in the end. Proved to be successful.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, but you don’t sleep. He thinks about it nonstop, he doesn’t sleep. I’ll get a text message in the middle of the night when we’re coming up to fight and it’ll be like 12, one o’clock and it’s even, if he’s in Colorado, it’s two o’clock for him and getting a random text message of what I should be doing for this fight. Like he’s watching sparring tapes of what I was doing when he changes and he changed that. This guy cares about my career just as much as I do and that’s why it works.

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah, it’s true. I want him to be the best he can be.

TJ Dillashaw:                 So his system changes. It’s a great thought out system, but I’ve never had the same training camp, I don’t ever have the same comma. We have your system base is the same but it always veers off, like, I don’t even know what the TJ combo is anymore. I think it’s changed like-

Duane Ludwig:             We always got to change things up.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Eight times, you know. It’s always like an add on or a change.

Joe Rogan:                    Well I remember the first time you fought Renan Barao, when you won the title and Duane and I had lunch together and there was a bunch of people, but Duane didn’t even know they were alive. He wasn’t even paying attention, he was just telling me exactly how it’s gonna go down and he was just talking about all things of it and his hands are moving, his shoulders are twitching, his eyes moving around back and forth and he was going a hundred miles an hour with his voice. I was like, “Wow, dude you are geared up.”, he goes, “He’s gonna fuck him up. He’s gonna fuck him up.”

Duane Ludwig:             For sure.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I mean you see the emotion that he shows in the octagon after the fights. So that’s how much he cares going in to it, that’s how nervous he is. Like I said, if you have a coach that cares that much about you and your career then you don’t let it go.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, when you were in Sacramento and then you moved to Colorado you had basically kind of had to start from scratch. A lot of people obviously know who you are, you’re a well sought out trainer, but you were opening up your own place from scratch and now that place is fucking mobbed and you’re expanding.

Duane Ludwig:             Yes sir. We’re expanding and just continuing to grow and have a good, positive outlet for people to explore their soul, right. That’s why I’m here, is to teach martial arts, so I’m glad everyone else is realizing that as well and I can cross paths with ninjas like TJ Dillashaw and help them become better martial artists and I’m 100% living vicariously through TJ and all my athletes and everybody under the BMT umbrella and it’s a good way to give back and basically relive another career for the most part, right.

Duane Ludwig:             And that’s what we should be doing anyways, paying the positive lessons forward and on to the next generation and that’s the definition of sensei actually meaning history teacher, you know, from those who have come before you, and to have somebody like TJ as dedicated as he is, it’s a true blessing and that’s why I’m all in. He’s all in, I’m all in, let’s go.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, it’s just rare that you find all in coach and all in fighter and they get together and you guys have such unique working-

TJ Dillashaw:                 I’m more than all in, same with you. I’m like addicted, I can’t, if I’m not completely, full blown in to it I mentally am fucked when I get home.

Joe Rogan:                    Now coming off of this second victory over Cody and then being able to stop him even quicker this time and just all the crazy shit talking that led up to that fight and the results of the first fight, I mean, that’s got to be very satisfying to you that everything is going according to plan.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Absolutely man, it is. Especially with the whole build up, you know, it was like two years of just bullshit having to deal with that mouth and that’s not the kind of person I am. I’d rather be in the mountains, you not be able to get a hold of me hunting or just camping, like if I could disappear I’d take the advantage and do it, you know, so that crazy attention and just the shit talking, the TV show, them accusing me of everything, like, that took a lot, and for all that to be taken off my shoulders feels great.

Joe Rogan:                    For you thought that’s got to be a real feeling of retribution too. Like, no matter what they said, you had the right idea. They might not have been happy that you decided to do it for yourself and the right move for yourself was to go and go to Colorado and be with Duane, but obviously you were right.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, 100% I was right. That’s why I made the decision. I’m definitely, you know, you got to be selfish in this sport, you got to do what’s best for yourself.

Joe Rogan:                    In some ways without fucking people over, you have to be selfish.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yes, of course. We have to know what’s best for you, so the ultimate decision for me was when I got an ultimatum, you know, like Urijah knew how much I liked training with Duane, he knew how great it was for my mentality and we just vibed right away and they didn’t and so when he gave me an ultimatum like, “Look man, you’re either doing your camp with Duane or doing it with us.”, I was like, “Well then you don’t have my best interest at heart, I’m out of here.”, you know, like I sold my house, moved out to Colorado. I dropped everything and went dude, that was tough, that was a tough situation to go through and I made the right choice.

Joe Rogan:                    Well your decision, the way you approached it, was very similar to what you were doing too because when I talked to you you were like, “I’m gonna open up my own gym in Colorado.”, and I remember thinking, whenever someone thinks they’re gonna start from scratch with a new gym by themselves I’m like I wish you well but damn that’s a lot of work, you know as well as anybody.

Duane Ludwig:             Yes sir. I’ve known since I was a kid I was gonna be a world champion and have my own academy in Colorado. Check, check.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Starting a gym is tough man. We’re doing it now, we’ve been going through it for the last year, year and a half down here in Southern California.

Joe Rogan:                    And the new place is called-

TJ Dillashaw:                 The Training Lab.

Joe Rogan:                    The Training Lab and with R-E-I-N.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Like Rein.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Because Mark Munoz had rein down in Lake Forest and Sam Calvitta, the guy that I moved down for for strength and conditioning just his crazy mind, he’s beyond smart. Like, everything he talks about I have to be at his house for hours pretty much doing a podcast with him to figure out what he’s talking about and it usually always goes over your head, you know, like I said I’m always full blown, I’m in 100% and so as soon as he started showing me the science behind what my body needs to do if it were for my diet, my recovery, the days I’m working out, the way I’m doing my strength and conditioning and if I’m gonna go bigger or how far I am from camp, like everything has a rhyme and reason. Every calorie I eat, every macro nutrient I eat he’s got it written down. He’s like this guy, he stays up late and works and he doesn’t do it for the money or the pride, like, he doesn’t want anything. We do it out of his garage. It’s like old Rocky style training with Drago science.

Joe Rogan:                    I saw that on the UFC countdown video.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah man, we’re out in the park, you know, we’re doing crazy, like yesterday I was out in the park with him doing a bunch of crazy stuff and a lot of reaction time stuff and just the way he trains is very scientific and I’ve seen the gains insanely. For as old as I am I am the fastest and strongest I’ve ever been.

Joe Rogan:                    How old are you now?

TJ Dillashaw:                 32. I’ve been training since I was eight and I never got in to diet, never got in to any of this until I started picking Sam’s brain and I mean it’s not bro science either. We’re not like, “Oh, I think I feel better.”, I’m testing myself, you know, I boosted my hormones. I wasn’t able to get my wife pregnant for three years and it happened in three months after meeting Sam. I went full blown, I went so full blown that I created my own spice company around his diet. I don’t-

Joe Rogan:                    What has he got you doing differently? How were you eating before and what were you doing before for strength and conditioning before you met him?

TJ Dillashaw:                 So I didn’t care about what I ate, I don’t cut much weight, you know, 35s isn’t a very big cut for me.

Joe Rogan:                    What do you walk around at?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Like right now I’d probably go 150 this morning. That’s a little bit lighter than normal. I bulk up to go to 35s, I put on another good five pounds of muscle before I start to even worry about my weight at 35s. But I was just eating whatever and I used to make fun of Danny for being gluten free, I’d be like, “Give me more gluten, I don’t care. I’ll eat whatever I want. I’m the best.”, you know, “I’ll just train hard, train harder than everyone.”, but not only my age but just learning the science behind it. Now I’m not eating grains, no sugars unless it’s like from fruits and stuff like that, yeah man, I mean it’s a special diet. You almost go like paleo, keto, kind of, but obviously our bodies can’t do that because I need the simple carbs and your carbs are run off the stuff, but yeah, I don’t wanna give away all the secrets, but yeah man he’s changed up a lot with me.

Joe Rogan:                    You don’t want to give away all the secrets but when it comes to nutrition what is different, like what kinds of proteins have you been eating, what portions of protein, how much of it is fat, what are you getting your fat from avocado, coconut oil, what are you getting it from?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Oh yeah, a lot of nuts, a lot of coconut oils. They even pre make my meals so I don’t even think about what meals I’m eating. He does all three of my meals and two of my snacks every day.

Joe Rogan:                    And you live in that area when you’re doing training camp?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yes. So I just bought a house in Yorba Linda.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s a nice area.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, I love it. It’s amazing. It’s a really good family area, good school district, so.

Joe Rogan:                    It’s real quiet.

TJ Dillashaw:                 That’s how you know your life has changed when you’re looking at houses for school districts and that.

Joe Rogan:                    Dude, trust me.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Being a father is the greatest, but-

Joe Rogan:                    It’s a change of the whole shifting of your world.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s everything, yeah it’s everything. That’s all you think about.

Joe Rogan:                    It takes a while to realize you’re a different person, like, “Oh, I’m a different person than I used to be.”

Duane Ludwig:             I remember you made a comment before saying that there was an old banana or a fresh banana or something.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, that was a bit from my act.

Duane Ludwig:             Oh, was that what it was.

Joe Rogan:                    There was two bananas and one of them was yellow and perfect, the other one was brown and fucked up, but my daughter loves bananas so I took that brown fucked up banana and I ate it because I realized that I was putting her above me and I never thought about that before and then I said because I love my wife, she’s an awesome person, but if it’s just me and her that bitch is getting a shitty banana.

Duane Ludwig:             That’s why I drive a freaking Subaru car because it’s got a five star crash rating, good in the snow, so yeah, I think of the kids first for sure.

Joe Rogan:                    Subaru, they own Denver. They own it.

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah, Colorado there’s tons of Subarus.

Joe Rogan:                    They own Colorado. It’s like-

Duane Ludwig:             But I did just get a Tesla, so I’m supporting the podcast. Well kind of, it’s not like I just dropped 50 grand, you know, you go on the website, you punch in the information, you put in a thousand dollar deposit and you got to wait for a while for it to be built and so it’s not like I dropped 50 grand and then I’m gonna lease it through the business anyway but I’ve been wanting to get one for a while.

Joe Rogan:                    It’s funny man how Subarus, like, they’ve proven themselves in Colorado just for reliability.

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah, they’re awesome. Ton of old ones still floating around.

Joe Rogan:                    Everywhere. Literally if you go for Boulder it’s like 50% Subarus.

Duane Ludwig:             I would say that, yeah, for sure.

Joe Rogan:                    They just said, “Let’s just cut the shit. This one is the best in snow, let’s stop fucking around. They never break.”, fucking Japanese cars man. I’ve had three Lexuses, never had a single problem with any of them over 15, 20 years I’ve had Lexuses. They never fuck up.

Duane Ludwig:             Perfect.

Joe Rogan:                    They just start every time. No fuck ups.

TJ Dillashaw:                 300000 miles on it, it’s still gonna run.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, other cars you get in the windows roll halfway down, “What the fucks going on?”, ding ding ding, lights go off on the dashboard, “What is this?”, and it shuts off, “Aw, fuck!”

Duane Ludwig:             Put black tape over it you won’t see it no more.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, well you know, it’s got to be difficult to build cars. Speaking of cars, does everybody know you have that fucking thing outside, you allowed to talk about it?

TJ Dillashaw:                 I’m allowed to talk about it, yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    You got one of my favorite cars ever.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Dude, I love it.

Joe Rogan:                    The new NSX.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s an amazing car.

Joe Rogan:                    That thing’s a space ship.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It really is man.

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah, spaceship.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s a real space ship.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s a real fun car.

Joe Rogan:                    What were we talking about, it has four engines, three of them are electric, it is a crazy vehicle.

TJ Dillashaw:                 And it’s got that twin turbo V6. It’s only got high 500s in horsepower.

Young Jamie:                There it is. Look at that fucking thing.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah. But-

Joe Rogan:                    Only got high 500s, you know how hilarious that sounds.

TJ Dillashaw:                 But the torque on it is insane because it’s two electric motors, so off the start it’s so fast, zero to 60 in 2.9 seconds.

Joe Rogan:                    Jesus.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s fast.

Joe Rogan:                    It’s so good looking too.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    I love the way they look. They look like a car that’s supposed to be built in 2018, you know what I mean, it’s like that shits from the future.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It took them a long time to create that car and then they stopped making the 2nd generation NSX, like what-

Joe Rogan:                    2005.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    I had one.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Oh, did you?

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah. I had two of those.

TJ Dillashaw:                 That’s why you’re a huge fan of them too.

Joe Rogan:                    I had one in the early 90s and then I had one in 2003.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Okay.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Did you like the early 90s or 2000s better?

Joe Rogan:                    No, I like the headlights better in the newer one but they’re all awesome. It’s not a fast car, like if you buy it, I think it had 270 horsepower.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Okay.

Joe Rogan:                    But it’s all aluminum, it’s mid engine and it sounds amazing when it gets high, like in the high revs, but it doesn’t sound like, it’s not like an old Mustang where it’s like, “Fuck you!”, like metal as it’s traveling the streets, it’s like a sophisticated sound, but a cool sound, the V-tech engine.

TJ Dillashaw:                 That was my one problem with the NSX was how quiet it was because it’s a hybrid. Like I said it’s one of three cars in the United States right now that have a custom exhaust to make it sound a lot better. This guy out in Chicago, Abiro, I think it is has designed an exhaust for it.

Joe Rogan:                    That car is also, even though it’s an Acura, that car is made and designed in the United States.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, the factories in Ohio, right?

Joe Rogan:                    Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    It’s a total American car but it’s under the Acura, like, what is America anymore, I mean I don’t even understand anything anymore.

Duane Ludwig:             Every time I order stuff it’s always from China or Pakistan or something, so yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    But it’s also like the parts, like are all the parts made here, everything?

Duane Ludwig:             No, assembled.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s the issue with Harley Davidson, right? Trump wants us to ban Harley Davidsons now, boycott Harley Davidsons.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Really?

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, because Harley Davidson is gonna shift their factories to somewhere to make some part of it or maybe all of it.

Duane Ludwig:             Should maybe talk with Elon Musk and save the world.

Joe Rogan:                    I don’t know. I don’t think anybody can do Trump’s job, I don’t think anybody can be president. I think it’s stupid to ask one person to have that much responsibility.

Duane Ludwig:             Yes. That person, that needs like 10, 15 people to handle that job, for sure.

Joe Rogan:                    At least. Maybe 30.

TJ Dillashaw:                 There’s no way I’d ever want the pressure of that job.

Joe Rogan:                    Fuck that job.

Young Jamie:                Fuck that job.

Duane Ludwig:             Wonder how much he’s actually doing?

Joe Rogan:                    I wonder how much pussy he’s getting. I really wanna know because I don’t think he just stopped getting pussy. He’s like, “I’m Trump!”

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah, for sure. He’s still on the roll.

Joe Rogan:                    There’s got to be, whether him and Melania still hook up, she seems upset with him. It’s interesting as a drama. Let’s watch it all go down, like, is the investigation closing in on him, are they gonna put him in jail, or is he gonna be like, “Fuck you. I’m getting on my space ship. I’m flying away.” I don’t know.

Duane Ludwig:             Pretty sure he has a space ship.

Joe Rogan:                    Well if he doesn’t he’s trying to find out if he can get one. A gold one that says Trump on the side of it.

Duane Ludwig:             That’s why he’s got to work for Elon Musk again.

Joe Rogan:                    Well Elon bailed on him when they got out of the Paris accord, the climate accord. I don’t know enough about this-

TJ Dillashaw:                 I don’t know how your brain holds on to even that much information.

Joe Rogan:                    I don’t either man.

TJ Dillashaw:                 You remember everything.

Joe Rogan:                    I remember too much. It’s a problem. I don’t remember shit that my wife will tell me from Tuesday, like, “What? You told me that?” She’s like, “We we’re standing right here.”, she’ll go over all the details because she remembers all of it, I’m like, “Okay, I guess you’re right. Okay.”

Duane Ludwig:             For sure.

Joe Rogan:                    But I’ll tell you in 1852-

TJ Dillashaw:                 Exactly, exactly.

Duane Ludwig:             Pull up some facts and stats.

Joe Rogan:                    Some stupid stats.

Duane Ludwig:             That’s how I am. When it comes to martial arts I feel I understand, have a good grasp on what’s happening but outside of martial arts I don’t know that much.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, but that’s probably good man. I think there’s some real power in that, having a singular focus. I think in order to be great at something you have to be that way.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I wouldn’t say singular, but I would say very dominantly focused.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, I think you’re right.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Because if I was only thinking about MMA I would not be here, I wouldn’t be a fighter.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, that’s a good point. You need some other things that interest you to relieve the pressure-

TJ Dillashaw:                 Have to.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Otherwise it’s too much and you snap.

Joe Rogan:                    What is the best one for you?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Escape wise?

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Jumping on my Malibu boat in my backyard in Colorado and wake surfing and just getting out or hunting, both those. I like getting out, I just went and hiked around in the mountains of Colorado for, I only got to do 2.5 days because I’m too busy, but by myself, no one else, first time I ever hunt in the area, I scouted it like three days before camp. I just went out by myself, didn’t have a cell phone reception, nothing, just your own thoughts for 2.5 days.

Joe Rogan:                    So this time your archery mule deer, is that what it was?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, so I tried getting an elk tag but I didn’t draw. I did draw a mule deer tag from the same area. So it’s heavily dominated elk so it’s hard to get mule deer there.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, it’s hard to get those two to coincide with each other but that’s hard hunting. That’s mountain hunting, that’s the real deal.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah man, I mean you’re going from 8000 to 10, 11, 12000 feet, you know, hike two or three of those mountains and you’re toast when you get back.

Joe Rogan:                    Hey man, when you do that bring that Shroom Tech sport, that Onnit Shroom Tech sport. Any cordyceps mushroom supplement, anything along those lines, that’s literally how it came about. They realized these high altitude cattle herders were realizing that their cows were more active when they were eating these certain mushrooms, that’s a cordyceps mushroom. We actually grow, we don’t grow, but you know, we buy it from people who grow-

TJ Dillashaw:                 The company buys it from somebody who grows it.

Joe Rogan:                    They grow it off caterpillars.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Oh, no way. They grow off the caterpillars?

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, it’s fucking weird shit man.

TJ Dillashaw:                 All cordycep mushrooms are grown that way?

Joe Rogan:                    I don’t know about all, but a lot of them.

TJ Dillashaw:                 That’s crazy.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, they grow them on caterpillars so they’re definitely not vegan.

Duane Ludwig:             I take Shroom Tech and Alpha Brain before every session.

TJ Dillashaw:                 So is that a plant based, like-

Joe Rogan:                    It’s fungal based.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Okay. Well yeah, a mushroom, duh.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah. Mushrooms, they take in air and they breathe out carbon dioxide like we do. They’re closer to animals than they are to plants. It’s a whole different category, you ever listen to Paul Stamets?

Duane Ludwig:             No.

Joe Rogan:                    Oh my God. I did a podcast with him, strap yourself in, take three hits, hold on tight, buckle down and listen to that guys podcast. He’s a real mycologist, an actual scientist who studies mushrooms and he’s amazing. So that’s how cordyceps mushrooms are grown.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Okay.

Joe Rogan:                    Where’s the caterpillar, underneath that?

Young Jamie:                Nah, you can just buy this, a culture-

Joe Rogan:                    Oh, that’s a culture of them?

Young Jamie:                Yeah. I thought it would have a caterpillar in there.

Joe Rogan:                    Oh, okay. So this is for your home. That’s probably even better, right? You get it fresh?

Young Jamie:                I don’t know how you make it, but-

Joe Rogan:                    I don’t know how to make it either. A lot of dudes grow shrooms though, it’s pretty easy apparently.

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    But just, it’s a phenomenal supplement and if you’re doing anything high altitude it will absolutely increase your endurance. That is one of the only supplements that I’ll tell people, “Look, if you’re skeptical about any of this shit please I want you, before you work out, an hour before, you take four Shroom Tech sports and get ready because you’re gonna have an extra gear.”, you’ve got one extra gear in training. It’s like one extra push.

Duane Ludwig:             I take them before every session with TJ, Shroom Tech and Alpha Brain.

Joe Rogan:                    It’s the B-12, it’s cordyceps mushrooms, B-12 and adaptogens and those are all really important things for energy. So does Calavitta have you doing all kinds of supplementation and what does he got you taking?

TJ Dillashaw:                 So every ones got a different supplement plan because he does a hair analysis from us and decided-

Joe Rogan:                    Jesus Christ, he’s a scientist.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Oh, he really is, everything’s got numbers man, everything.

Joe Rogan:                    Hair analysis. I love it.

TJ Dillashaw:                 So my supplement base will be different than Duane’s. I mean a lot of us have the same aminos, we have the same creatine, obviously depending where you’re going for a fight, you know, that kind of stuff but when it comes down to what’s in your body mineral wise, like I might have more magnesium or more this and more that and he gets our body back to homeostasis. So we’ll take out what you have too much of. I might need more vitamin B-

Joe Rogan:                    Was there any examples of things you have too much of?

TJ Dillashaw:                 I have too much arsenic in my body.

Joe Rogan:                    Whoa, what were you eating?

TJ Dillashaw:                 I think it’s rice. I think the rice is giving a lot-

Joe Rogan:                    Rice?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-hmm (affirmative), because it’s grown in water. So arsenics coming out of the water.

Joe Rogan:                    Oh, wow.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, so I think it’s the rice. It could be from my tattoos as well, like the ink.

Joe Rogan:                    Oh, really?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, the ink has arsenic in it.

Joe Rogan:                    I’m fucked.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah man, the only person that has more arsenic in their body than me in our camp was Cub Swanson.

Joe Rogan:                    Wow. And he’s all covered in tattoos.

TJ Dillashaw:                 His whole back and stuff, yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    That is crazy. Now did they find a way to eliminate it, can you eliminate it?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, so I’m taking a lot of different stuff for it, but I’m taking chlorella, I juice everyday, I juice cilantro, cilantros are good for heavy metals getting detoxed. I’m taking methionine, which is an amino to pull it out of your body and then he’s got some drops I’m on too, I don’t even know what they are.

Joe Rogan:                    Now have you got a second test since?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah. It’s come down by over 50%.

Joe Rogan:                    Oh, wow.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    So if it’s still in your system and you’re not eating rice anymore, so it’s got to be from your tattoos.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, it could be. I mean-

Joe Rogan:                    Or is it just slowly leaving.

TJ Dillashaw:                 So you can do like collation where they do it by IV, but that stuffs like hard on you how fast it comes out. So it comes out in like pimples, it will come out like it started coming out of my arm, like mainly I’d get pimples throughout my arm and that’s kind of your body pushing it. You also push it through your urine and things like that but it will come out of your skin.

Joe Rogan:                    You got arsenic zits son.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Weird. I tested for arsenic once but I was eating sardines, I was eating a lot of sardines and apparently they live on the bottom of the ocean and they get a lot of the heavy metal poisons in that way. That’s crazy but it makes sense with rice, that totally makes sense.

TJ Dillashaw:                 But every ones got different supplements, like it just depends on what’s in your body, like, what you need to get back to perfect homeostasis and then he adds the certain amino muscle building and ubiquinol and the krill oils and things like that for building new red blood cells and things like that.

Joe Rogan:                    What is his scientific background?

TJ Dillashaw:                 So I don’t know all of that, I know he worked for NASA. He was working with the nuclear anti-defense system and then he missed a Christmas or something and decided to move home and be a school teacher and he became a calculus teacher and I think it was a private high school and people would travel all over the world to take his class. He won some award of being the best calculus teacher in the world, like all of his kids on his placement test scored, I don’t know if it’s perfect or very high, and so yeah, he’s just like math, math will tell you everything. It’s behind the numbers. Like I said, it’s not bro science, it’s to the exact, you know exactly if you’re getting better. Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Well he must apply that science to his understanding of energy and of intensity because the way you guys change it’s very intense, very explosive, it reminds me a lot of what I’m seeing at least of like Marv Marinovich’s type training. Like, a lot of plyometrics, a lot of things along those lines, would that be fair to say?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Absolutely. But then we’re also doing deadlifts and cleans and we’re doing a lot of stuff man.

Joe Rogan:                    And he mixes it up a lot?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, depending where you’re at in your camp, also the recovery. So the recoveries huge, he listens to our body while we’re sleeping so he gets a report every morning of-

Joe Rogan:                    He’s next to you in the bed.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Like you had a couple of glasses of wine last night, you know, like why are you not recovering. He just knows if you’re too stressed out, he’ll tell me when I’m gonna get sick. He’s caught on to me getting sick before I got sick. He’s like, “Oh, your bodies about to crash you need to take the next day, next two days off. You need to really rest.”

Duane Ludwig:             He helped keep TJ in that last fight. Helped repair some injuries, right, we don’t have to talk about them but he, without Sam, that fight may have been different.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Probably my last two fights.

Duane Ludwig:             Yep, you’re right. Yes sir.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I’ve been dealing with some serious stuff the last couple fights but I’ve been able to keep my body very strong.

Joe Rogan:                    And you also spent some time with Dr. Neil Riordan, Don Panama and was the for the same type of injuries?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Same thing, yeah. So a combination of the science of stem cell and doctor Neil Riordan as well as more out here. I mean I got stem cells in the states, I got them in Panama. I’ve had to do a lot to hold myself together kind of thing and I don’t feel great because of the way I’m training and yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    I don’t think people understand the kind of strain on your body a fight camp puts. It’s fucking crazy. I mean, if I worked out the way you guys did once I’m wrecked for a week. You guys are doing two a days, everyday, constantly going at it and then there’s ice bath. What does he have you doing, sauna, ice baths, what does he have you got?

TJ Dillashaw:                 For our recovery I mean mainly it’s just most of the time taking the time off. But we have, it’s always changing, it’s always evolving too, he’s got like this iMile Pro we do for some sort of stim on our muscles. I do light-

Joe Rogan:                    Stim, like electrical stim?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-hmm (affirmative). I do light therapy. There’s this new place he’s starting to work with down in Michigan called like the O2 recovery centre where we’ll do cryo, we’ll do hyperbaric chamber, we’ll do, what is it, CVac or something like that.

Joe Rogan:                    Mm-hmm (affirmative)-

TJ Dillashaw:                 A bunch of different stuff we’re gonna add to it.

Joe Rogan:                    Cvac is the machine we were talking about really recently where it jacks you up in altitude and then brings you down. It changes the pressure inside that little tube. That’s supposed to be pretty amazing. Did you have good results with that?

TJ Dillashaw:                 I actually haven’t done it yet, it’s something he’s told me now that like, “We’re gonna add this now.” Like it’s always like every time I come back to camp it’s like we’re adding the next step. He doesn’t do it all at once.

Duane Ludwig:             As it should. Life’s always changing and evolving, got to stay with the times.

TJ Dillashaw:                 He’d be like you teach me the BMT black belt system right away without knowing any of it. So he gets my body slowly adapted to certain things and then he adds to it.

Joe Rogan:                    What about massage?

TJ Dillashaw:                 A lot, yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    What kind of massage are you doing?

TJ Dillashaw:                 He doesn’t have me do it. I just do it because I love it, you know, but I always do deep tissue for the most part and then a lot of the mat, like the stretching, kind of like-

Joe Rogan:                    Thai massage type stuff?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, a lot of thai massage and then also, yeah exactly-

PART 1 OF 5 ENDS [00:29:04]

Joe Rogan:                    … massage type stuff.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, a lot of time massaging and then also, yeah exactly. I forgot. They’d stretch you out.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s amazing. They’d stand on your back and pull your arms up. You’re like, “Yeah.”

Duane Ludwig:             I have a student Bret Tommasini. He is by far the best massage therapist I’ve ever come across.

Joe Rogan:                    Really?

Duane Ludwig:             He’s bad ass.

Joe Rogan:                    There’s ones out there.

Duane Ludwig:             Man, he’s got a black belt in massage therapy, that’s for sure.

TJ Dillashaw:                 A good massage shouldn’t feel that great to the average person. It’s gonna hurt.

Joe Rogan:                    It’s supposed to hurt.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s how you’re going to feel afterwards. I actually now have learned to enjoy the pain kind of thing. Well yeah, actually so I’ve been working this whole last camp too. A guy that really helped me get to my camp was a… I’m an idiot right now. I’m drawing a blank, but Javier. He did a lot of body work on me that holds me in place too as well.

Joe Rogan:                    Body work as opposed to… What is body work as opposed to regular massage?

TJ Dillashaw:                 He’s more of like a the nervous system, will follow your pathways and really find out what’s weak. He’ll tell me something that’s weak before I even let him know before the massage [crosstalk 00:29:59].

Joe Rogan:                    How can they tell that?

TJ Dillashaw:                 I don’t know how he can tell that. I’m not really sure. You’d have to have him tell you.

Joe Rogan:                    There’s something weird about people that touch people’s bodies all the time. Then you go, “This is all horse shit,” and they’ll put their arm on your shoulder. “What’s going on with your shoulder?” You’re like, “What? What do you mean?” They’re like, “It’s very intense up here. You have an injury you’re nursing?” You’re like, “How did you know that? How the fuck do you know?”

Duane Ludwig:             It’s a sixth sense for sure. Something’s going on.

Joe Rogan:                    They just get used to the difference between your left side and your right side. They’re like, “Something’s going on here.” They just… It’s like everything else, right? Your understanding of what an athlete’s capable of is so different than a person who doesn’t train. We can’t imagine somebody being able to touch your pec and go, “You’ve got a tear. You’ve got a muscle tear.” You’re like, “What?”

TJ Dillashaw:                 But there’s also those massage therapists who’ll do something like, “How’s that feel? Do you feel better?” It’s like, “Yeah, I guess I feel better,” but this guy will find my weaknesses without me even telling him. He’ll know things that I need to get worked on. He knows my hips are aligned. Kind of almost like a chiropractor as well, but he doesn’t do chiropractic work.

Joe Rogan:                    Good.

Duane Ludwig:             You don’t like chiropractors huh?

Joe Rogan:                    I just don’t think it’s real.

Duane Ludwig:             I love ’em. I love to get aligned back up.

Joe Rogan:                    Good.

Duane Ludwig:             I’ve had my neck just tweaked and not being able to do anything and then get aligned back up and be ready to go. It’s definitely helped me.

Joe Rogan:                    Massage I think works better than anything, but it’s just too much about what chiropractic medicine was, how it started. It started by a guy who was a magnetic healer, who learned about it in a séance. Then his son murdered him and took over the business.

Duane Ludwig:             Turned out to be something good.

Joe Rogan:                    But they-

TJ Dillashaw:                 People are crazy, huh?

Joe Rogan:                    The good thing about, it’s interesting what’s good and what’s not. What’s provable, it’s very interesting. People always say it’s a part of the National Institute of Healthcare, is that what it is? A part of their recommended program, but it’s not anymore. They removed it. There’s no real evidence that shows it works. The thing about it is though, it’s like “I just adjusted myself.” I adjusted my knuckles. That’s literally what they’re doing, what they’re doing to your back.

Duane Ludwig:             I’ve had, for whatever over a 100 fights and had my neck jacked up with wrestling and shots and I’ve had pretty significant injury where I couldn’t change lanes and turn and drive and then go get adjusted and be back to square one. It has helped me for sure.

Joe Rogan:                    I’ve done the same thing with massage. There’s something to people touching you and working on stuff and loosening you up in a way that you can’t do. I’m not saying there’s not good chiropractors out there that really understand all the other things like cold laser therapy and different kinds of manipulation in terms of muscle stretching and what is that type of, rolfing? Rolfing is legit.

TJ Dillashaw:                 What’s that?

Joe Rogan:                    Brutal massage. Just a brutal, brutal massage, but it’s one of those things where it breaks everything down and then after it’s over, everything’s very loose. There’s a lot of chiropractors who are really good physical therapists, too, but just the underlying principles of what the chiropractic medical practice is. It started off with nonsense. The guy thought he could fix everything by adjusting you. “Something wrong with your eyesight? Let me fix it.”

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah, there’s gonna be limits for sure.

Joe Rogan:                    “Bad feet? Let me fix it. I’m gonna crack your neck and you’re not gonna have bad breath anymore.” That’s stupid.

TJ Dillashaw:                 But if you tell them to believe it people are like, “Oh nice. I do.”

Duane Ludwig:             The power of belief is huge.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s part of the problem is one of the things they prey on and one of the things they use as and not… There’s levels to this whole thing. It’s not just regular chiropractors.

TJ Dillashaw:                 There are levels.

Joe Rogan:                    There’s different kinds of “healers” that have different systems. They think they can push down the middle of your back and cure your pancreas. So much horse shit, but it’s not real, but there are a bunch of things you can do that are real and massage is one of them. Massage, it’s absolutely a fact that it’s helped loosen people up and relax people. There’s something about being manipulated like that. Somebody really digging their elbow into your tissue and loosening everything up. We got this fucking Tim Tam. You ever use one of these?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah. I have a Tim Tam and I have a Theragun as well. [crosstalk 00:33:59]. I think I have yours.

Duane Ludwig:             Is that where it… Okay, cool.

TJ Dillashaw:                 He plays [inaudible 00:34:04]. I think I have his.

Joe Rogan:                    That thing is the shit. That thing’s amazing.

Duane Ludwig:             Fraws, thank you.

Joe Rogan:                    Oh yeah. Fraws hobby in the house.

Duane Ludwig:             Sent me one of those.

Joe Rogan:                    You have anything that’s knotted up and really bothering you, you gotta hammer it with that fucking thing and then afterwards it’s like, “Oo.”

Duane Ludwig:             One of my students made one of those out of a little driller. [crosstalk 00:34:19]. Put a tennis ball on it or something and it’s like wow.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s essentially what this is. It’s just the same kind of motor that’s going up and down.

Duane Ludwig:             He’s like, “Don’t buy that. I can make this thing for $30.” “I’m good.”

Joe Rogan:                    Just saw your fucking leg off.

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    When you guys are doing camp, do you move down to California for the… What do you do? Six or eight weeks? How many weeks ya doing?

TJ Dillashaw:                 I do a lot. I do more than I probably should, but I almost do camp before I get into camp.

Joe Rogan:                    Really? You like to get yourself into shape?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, I like to be in shape when camp starts. You know, I would say-

Duane Ludwig:             He’s always developing things.

TJ Dillashaw:                 This camp Duane came out, started coming out nine weeks before the fight? Maybe ten?

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah. It was a little extra. More than two months.

TJ Dillashaw:                 He would do three days. He would come out, fly out.

Duane Ludwig:             Monday, Wednesday, Friday or no, I’m sorry. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. So be out here three days, back home four days. Splitting time. It worked out. With that I was able to find, which I was already aware of… Slow down mother fucker. Sorry, I get excited.

Joe Rogan:                    You’re doing great. No problems. I got my notepad right here. [crosstalk 00:35:19] Folks I gotta tell yeah, Duane’s gotta talk slower today. People always complain I talk too fast. I’m gonna talk slower.

TJ Dillashaw:                 You get a lot of information in that one minute in the corner time.

Duane Ludwig:             That’s what I talked about ’cause that’s why I talk fast.

Joe Rogan:                    Is it true?

Duane Ludwig:             I talk fast. This is why I’m wired, why I talk fast. I got about 30 seconds to talk and relay information which is why I also have the system and encode all the drills and combinations so I can condense it, right? I don’t want to say, “Jab, [inaudible 00:35:41], cross, three.” That can’t [inaudible 00:35:43].

TJ Dillashaw:                 For instance, you can get in my corner for my tomorrow fight, tell me what to do and I walk out there and 30 seconds later I knock him out. Whatever it is, because you’re able to get the information off and there’s a system to it.

Duane Ludwig:             Yep, laying it out, mapping. There’s routines and there’s patterns of success, you know? There are high percentage drills of combinations that have proven to be successful. Well, how about we just keep practicing those? Obviously it’s up to the athlete to find the timing, difference and accuracy to pull them off.

TJ Dillashaw:                 And you have to believe.

Duane Ludwig:             There the are. The power of belief, right?

TJ Dillashaw:                 You have to believe in the system, too. If I didn’t believe exactly what Duane was telling me or that he can see it that I know he can see it ’cause he’s good at it, why are you really gonna go out there and do what he says?

Duane Ludwig:             That’s one thing I had with Boss, too. Whenever he gave me information, I did not doubt it at all ’cause I knew he’d been there, done that. It wasn’t stuff that he felt he would do. It’s stuff that he knew that I should do, right? I feel like I can understand TJ and I can give him the proper information for the proper time, but I also I know when to sit back and let him flow as well and when to tripe in and give him information. He’s really good about receiving information as a case in point, the first fight with Cody between the rounds. We had to drastically change things and what we needed to change was just the timing of our attack. It was pretty simple. To me, fighting now is… I don’t think I know it all. I mean I know I don’t know it all, but it’s all I know and I know a lot. That’s for sure.

Duane Ludwig:             But what I was going back to earlier. Traveling out here three days a week and back home four days I found a really good… Fuck, slow down motherfucker.

Joe Rogan:                    You’re doing great.

Duane Ludwig:             Back to square one was… It’s all good. A rhythm of us as far as pulling off information. As far as the path, the class sparring and this is what we were layering it up with practicing in class. Now we’re sparring with it and going back to it we need to work on. I found a really good pyramid for TJ to retain or for anyone to retain the information, condensing it into three days, it was really fun. I look at it as an experiment. What’s the most optimal way for someone to perform in a fight safe and effectively? It’s fun. I love this shit.

Joe Rogan:                    There’s a lot of people who want to go to these big giant super camps and I know that with Alpha male you were in a big giant super camp. What you’re doing now is very different and this is something that obviously Stipe Miocic was doing. There was a lot of other fighters that were doing that are doing where a lot of it is based around them. Mighty Mouse in particular, he’s another one. There are unquestionably professional fighters around them, but it’s not like they’re in a building with six other world champions and there’s a bunch of savages that are coming up and everybody’s trying to kill each other. It’s a different setup. A lot of it is geared towards you.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It is and it’s just the natural way it happened this time.

Joe Rogan:                    Is this better? What is better? Is it better to be in the doghouse with all the Alpha male guys where it’s all just animals trying to kill each other?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yes.

Joe Rogan:                    Quality over quantity.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yes if it’s not for money. When these big gyms turn into something that wants to make money, then the real martial arts comes out of it. When you have coaches and people running it that are really going to not want to… I have a gym in the training lab, so I’m very fortunate that I have Steve Martin, a guy that’s been… He’s put his heart and soul into this thing to keep this building open because we’re not making money. It’s pretty much private. I teach a kid’s class and we do adult boot camp kind of things, just to turn the lights on. Just so the bills are paid and some sponsors here and there to pay the coaches. We’re losing money and thank God that we have a guy like Steve Martin who’s willing to see our dream. We want to build a team that’s not based around money. Whatever money we end up making for the gym is going every dollar to the coaches.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s great.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I don’t want to make money. I don’t want that awkward relationship between me Ron Chelleta that I’m making money off him ’cause then you get that weird business relationship rather than us just having a real relationship like me wanting him to get better, him wanting me to get better which I felt like maybe it used to be that way at Alpha Male, but it’s turned into a money thing to where, I don’t know man. There wasn’t like before and then before we got Duane we had no coach. It was just us coaching each other kind of thing.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, that’s not usually the best thing.

TJ Dillashaw:                 No, we were just beating each other up. We were sparring four or five days a week. I picked up stuff fast because of it. You had to learn how to fight and I’m aggressive and I like that stuff, but it’s not smart.

Joe Rogan:                    Right. In terms of your overall welfare.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Health. Longevity in the sport. I’ve turned into a real professional athlete in the sport instead of just going to the gym and going ham. Went everywhere from my diet, everywhere from the way I worked, the times I work out, my schedule, my recovery. Luckily I’m having Duane is able to travel out with me. I built an awesome facility right now with Mark Nunos circling back around, being a coach. Joe Christian, Felipe Demonaca and all these guys. It’s not money driven so it’s doing great right now. We’re awesome. We’re doing awesome.

Duane Ludwig:             He really does have a really good crew of people around him in all aspects.

Joe Rogan:                    This is in? You’re up in [inaudible 00:40:43]? Near there?

TJ Dillashaw:                 We’re in Anaheim.

Joe Rogan:                    Oh, beautiful. That’s great. We’re you’re off season in Anaheim you’re a hop, skip and a jump away.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Oh yeah, we’re right there. Even fighting in LA was nice. To have to fly nowhere was cool, fight in your backyard.

Joe Rogan:                    Dan Lambert did this before anybody. Dan Lambert in terms of throwing money at things and putting American top team together. That guy he spent a fuck load of money. He put fighters on salary and then recently built a giant place with dormitories and everything. That guy, out of all the people, he’s probably the pioneer of digging deep into his wallet and putting together a crazy gym set up like that. He’s a different kind of crew. You go down there, then there are a ton of world champions. There’s a ton of professional athletes and you’re not necessarily gonna get the singular specified training that you’re getting right now.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, for sure, but we’re also really, so yeah. You can be really good and we want you in our gym, but if you have the right personality as well, too. It’s not only about your skill to come and train with our gym and be a pro athlete there. We also gotta vibe with us. If we don’t have the vibe, egos are gonna get involved and the gyms gonna split up. This guys gonna go here, this guys gonna go there.

Joe Rogan:                    How do you determine that? Do you get to know them first and then let them in the gym?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, we always let everyone in to see how they’re doing it. If they don’t work out we tell them, “Hey man. This isn’t the spot for you. We don’t have an open spot for you.”

Duane Ludwig:             You can see it though with the drills and the dutch drills and just the drilling in general how caring somebody is. There’s four rules we ask the guys to follow. Rules that revolve around accountability. Show up on time, get better, get tired, take care of your partner. Do those four simple things and we’re good. It’s pretty simple.

Joe Rogan:                    Those are very good rules. It’s that sport that attracts people who are troubled.

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah agreed. The romans, the misfits. It’s good for me to have them.

Joe Rogan:                    I know people that have been abused that want to get people back. There’s a lot of that. You remember a lot of… When I was younger the more aggressive, meaner people when you find out more about them, you’d find out there’s child abuse. Dad used to beat ’em up. Stepdad beat ’em up. There was always something that they were trying to get back at people for.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I feel like the sport is changing enough now that it’s a very common thing that kids want to do. Now you have kids with a good upbringing wanting to do it.

Joe Rogan:                    It’s a challenging, possible career now. A young kid coming up sees someone like you and they go, “Look at this guy. He’s two time world champion, super respectful, articulate, real friendly, doesn’t have a chip on his shoulder, likes shaking hands, taking pictures and being around people. You don’t have to be an asshole. You don’t have to be some brooding asshole.”

TJ Dillashaw:                 For sure. You don’t get paid for it more these days.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s interesting, right?

TJ Dillashaw:                 You get paid more for being a complete asshole. If you don’t mind making a fool of yourself, then you’ll get paid more.

Joe Rogan:                    Like Colby.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah. To the extreme to like, “What, c’mon on.”

Joe Rogan:                    Colby’s hilarious. I think it’s funny. When he actually went to the fucking White House and put the thing on Donald Trump’s desk. Gave him the belt. I was like, “That is hilarious. He actually did it.” You know what would really be funny? If it turns out this whole time he was a Democrat and this was all just a big act. Really super pro gay rights, pro women’s rights.

TJ Dillashaw:                 If it would have been a Democrat in the Office he’d be a Democrat. Whoever’s in the office is who [inaudible 00:44:04].

Joe Rogan:                    Well, he’s just doing it only specifically for promotion. He and Tyron Woodley is gonna be crazy. That’s gonna be crazy.

Duane Ludwig:             You know the video on the internet? The one with the black dude that says, “I’m Tyron and fuck this and fuck that, whatever.” You know the internet guy?

Joe Rogan:                    No.

Duane Ludwig:             They’re hilarious. Can you pull up one of those videos of Tyron. They’re so funny. [crosstalk 00:44:24]. It would have been funny… Oh sorry?

Joe Rogan:                    You’ve got to explain what the fuck you’re talking about.

Duane Ludwig:             [crosstalk 00:44:32]. Fuck Tyron, he’s hilarious. Watch, he’ll pull him up, but it wasn’t funny-

Joe Rogan:                    Tommy Toehold?

Duane Ludwig:             No. You know what I’m talking about Jamie?

Young Jamie:                Yes.

Joe Rogan:                    You do? Thank goodness ’cause I have no idea.

Duane Ludwig:             It would have been as funny as hell. Okay, so watch this first. Watch one of these.

Joe Rogan:                    Give me some, give me some. Bring it from the beginning.

Young Jamie:                This is a long compilation of it. He just walks around and bullies people. It’s kind of a joke.

Joe Rogan:                    Is that him though? That’s not the regular Tyron. This is another one.

Duane Ludwig:             It’s a different Tyron.

Young Jamie:                This is a different guy?

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, this is a different one. The other one, he’s a different guy.

Duane Ludwig:             He’ll go-

TJ Dillashaw:                 You know you’re just typing “Tyron, black dude,” in the internet. You’re gonna get a lot of videos.

Duane Ludwig:             It’s hilarious.

Joe Rogan:                    What does this have to do with Tyron?

Duane Ludwig:             It would have been funny. That’s not the best clip ’cause if he would have won the belt, oh no he won the belt. “I’m Tyron and this is my motherfucking belt.” If you watch these videos and actually a good video of the Tyron and Tyron would do that in the cage. I’ve been thinking about this for a while it would have been so fucking funny, but it’s not funny is you don’t know the damn videos. Shit, Jaime. Pull that up.

Young Jamie:                That’s it.

Duane Ludwig:             I watch the Rogan show. That was the guy. [inaudible 00:45:42].

Joe Rogan:                    That’s hilarious. He was almost after he won like nothing happened.

Duane Ludwig:             He just [inaudible 00:45:47] new.

Joe Rogan:                    “I’ll fight anyone UFC wants me to fight.” It was just weird. This is another one?

Young Jamie:                That’s him.

Duane Ludwig:             Is that the same guy?

Young Jamie:                Yeah. This is the one where he gets beat up for saying he’s gonna fuck somebody’s wife or something like that.

Duane Ludwig:             Here it is.

Joe Rogan:                    What happened to that one?

Young Jamie:                I don’t know. I didn’t make the video.

Joe Rogan:                    This is terrible editing.

Duane Ludwig:             He just does funny shit.

Joe Rogan:                    It seems like he’s just mean and stealing. I don’t think that’s funny, Duane.

Duane Ludwig:             No, they’re funny. They’re funny.

Joe Rogan:                    He’s a mean stealer. All right, kill this.

Duane Ludwig:             Not as funny as I thought. Sorry guys.

Joe Rogan:                    I don’t find this even remotely funny.

Duane Ludwig:             Shit.

Joe Rogan:                    Seems like a bad sketch.

Duane Ludwig:             Maybe they’re funnier on the spaceship.

Joe Rogan:                    Tyron Woodley is not that guy.

Duane Ludwig:             No he’s not.

Joe Rogan:                    Although if he was it would probably sell more tickets.

TJ Dillashaw:                 For sure.

Duane Ludwig:             That’s probably where it tied in from like the cold beer approach.

Joe Rogan:                    ‘Cause he’s like super calm and respectful after that. It’s hard to believe he was just in a cage fight. Dude, he shut down all that Darren Till hype up quick.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I knew he was gonna win.

Duane Ludwig:             I would like to talk to Tyron or Duke to see if… Sorry to interrupt ’cause how he caught ’em. Darren, too. I made a video about this. How Darren Till typically likes to feint and pump and get the guy backing up. Get them out of position and then land the cross from the open stance from southpaw and there’s a slight delay between those two to three punches that he throws. I’m wondering if Tyrone did his research and seen that-

Joe Rogan:                    Tyron.

Duane Ludwig:             Tyron. Does he say Tyron, not Tyrone?

Joe Rogan:                    It’s not Tyrone.

Duane Ludwig:             Mr Woodley.

Joe Rogan:                    Right? It’s Tyron Woodley.

Duane Ludwig:             Tyron? Tyrone? Tyron. Now the joke wouldn’t have been as funny. Tyron. That’s why you’re saying Tyron. I’m wondering if he read that from watching the videos previously and seeing that little gap in his combinations to be able to beat him to the punch or if he just ducked and chucked. I’m curious to see if that was something they trained and sought out ’cause that takes balls. He’s coming at him with his strongest punches cross that he’s knocked many people out with and he just stepped into it and beat him to the punch. That takes balls.

Joe Rogan:                    Well Tyron always does that strategy of standing against the fence or close to the fence and then when guys move in he counters.

Duane Ludwig:             Yes.

Joe Rogan:                    He did that with Josh Koscheck. He’s done that with a lot of guys. Rory McDonnell was the only guy to shut that down. He figured out a way to shut it down.

TJ Dillashaw:                 He stayed long.

Joe Rogan:                    He stayed long. Used a lot of front kicks, a lot of jabs. Kept his left hand up high to block the right hand, the big right hand, but man Tyron’s just faster than him. Way faster.

Duane Ludwig:             Closed the distance so quick.

Joe Rogan:                    Closed the distance like lightning, landed that right hand. Beat the shit out of him on the ground. It was just shocking to me that Darren didn’t know what to do when he was on his back like in terms of-

TJ Dillashaw:                 That’s why I thought the fight was gonna go like him just being on top of him the whole thing. I thought Tyron was just gonna tear him down and solely be on top.

Joe Rogan:                    I thought maybe that was part of the strategy too, especially when you saw them warming up ’cause Tyron was doing a lot of exchanges and then shoots for a double or closes the distance level changes. They did that when he was working with boxing coaches as well. He would hit the mitts and then move in, level change.

Duane Ludwig:             Blended together.

Joe Rogan:                    But I was just, like Till didn’t understand that Darce was coming or didn’t know, but then you gotta wonder how battered was he? Took that big shot. Took a lot of hard elbows on the ground. How much was he really there?

TJ Dillashaw:                 That’s the beauty… I’m sorry.

Joe Rogan:                    I was gonna say because that Darce was a mile away. It was there and then it was there and then he cinched it up deep. There was never any separation. Never pulling the hands back.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I think Tyron’s a lot stronger than Till to be able to hold him in that crunch and in that position.

Duane Ludwig:             Real strong.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, he’s a freak. He’s a beast.

Duane Ludwig:             There’s a reason why he’s the champion, but I think that’s the… Well, the way I choose to look at it anyway is having a checklist. If you were to build up a mixed martial artist, how much information should they know? Standing, wrestling and then on the ground and they should just check, check, check and know all these basics should be covered before you go fight. That’s the beauty of having a curriculum and again a checklist.

Joe Rogan:                    No, I absolutely agree with you. The days of just being able to just fight someone and not know anything about them, that seems kind of foolish. Seems like a massive advantage to study. When Cowboy fought Darren Till he decided not to watch any tape on him. He’s like, “You know, I hear he’s a striker good. I love to strike.” Might want to watch this striker.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I’ll watch tape in the beginning with Duane, but then I let him continue from there. I trust his judgment on everything and then when I’m out if I can… ‘Cause sometimes when you watch tape in fight camp, it can mess with people’s heads. Maybe Cowboy’s getting too nervous. It gives him anxiety to watch the fight. If that’s the case, have a coach that’s willing to the trust to do that for you.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s a good point.

TJ Dillashaw:                 ‘Cause this sport’s a mental mind fuck, man. Whatever works the best for you is what you’ve got to figure out.

Joe Rogan:                    Is it better for you to fight someone like Cody that you have all this animosity and beef towards and all the shit talking ’cause you get super hyped up and motivated every day or is it better to fight someone who you have a lot of respect for, who’s just a good challenge?

TJ Dillashaw:                 I think you gotta learn to be the same person for every fight. I think it’s like control those emotions. Even though there’s all that coming in like, “I’m nervous to fight.” Forget all the bullshit. I had to learn that through my career. I had to learn to take emotion out of it. Even in sparring still, you know? Duane’s always telling me, “Control my emotion. Controlled aggression,” ’cause “You hit me. I want to hit you back.” I’m very competitive. It’s something you have to learn how to control and I’ve had to do that throughout my career and everyone has to learn how to control either to let go or to pull back. Really control that emotion to be the same person every fight, mentally. Not the same person every fight, but mentally in your own head, the same person, but technically need to be able to switch it up.

Joe Rogan:                    The mental aspect of it is probably the thing that holds more people back than anything. We all know of guys who are just monsters in the gym and for whatever it was when they went to compete they just could never be their full self.

Duane Ludwig:             TJ does better in the cage than he does in the gym. I did better in the gym than in the cage.

Joe Rogan:                    What do you think it is that makes you do better?

TJ Dillashaw:                 I love it. I don’t know. I’ve just taught myself to love this shit. I don’t know. When I get out there it’s just like I want to be there. I know everyone’s nervous and it’s the highest highs, but I used to be so nervous that I’d forget what happened in the fight, but throughout my career after the Mike Easton fights when I really started to hone in or during the Mike Easton fights when I really started to hone in and have fun and just realize “Fuck this shit, man. What’s the worse that’s gonna happen? You get knocked out? Go for it. Have some fun.”

Joe Rogan:                    Where is Mike Easton?

TJ Dillashaw:                 I don’t know. I don’t know.

Joe Rogan:                    Guy hasn’t been around for a while.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, I’m not really sure.

Joe Rogan:                    There’s a possible super fight with you and Henry Cejudo that’s being talked about.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Hell yeah. Hell yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Would you fight him at 125?

TJ Dillashaw:                 125s, yeah. Absolutely. I don’t want no excuses that I’m the bigger man.

Joe Rogan:                    Well, he’s probably bigger than you quite honestly.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, that’s what I’m saying.

Joe Rogan:                    He struggles to get to 34 from down 25. 25’s way over 35.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Especially with the coach I have now Sam Kelvita. I was told I was going to fight Demetrious Johnson the summer before I fought Cody the first time because Cody had to pull out because of his back. Within three weeks time I got done to waking up to 140 pounds by changing the way I’m working out, changing my calories, changing my macro nutrients and just going full board. I was able to start waking up in the morning 140 pounds within three weeks.

Joe Rogan:                    Right now you’re about 10+ pounds heavier than that and how much time would you need? If they said December 31st, New Year’s Eve, Super Fight.

TJ Dillashaw:                 My coach always wants the actual, he told me that before after my last fight. Only 16 weeks, but obviously we could do it a lot faster. I could have made 25s this last fight with how much water I had in me. The hydration that he’s got me going on when I get close to a fight too is easiest. I don’t do baths anymore. To make weight I walked on the treadmill with plastics.

Joe Rogan:                    For how long?

TJ Dillashaw:                 The day of, I’d say 30 minutes. I sat in the sauna a little bit.

Joe Rogan:                    So you’re only losing four or five pounds most, right?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, in the morning. Probably three or four, five pounds yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Wow. That’s a massive benefit to you in terms of your conditioning.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Oh, huge. Not having fluid on your brain, your cardio, your muscular contraction and endurance. I mean, everything. When you deplete yourself like that, like you’re talking about during Till I’d been cutting too much weight I could definitely be a possibility.

Joe Rogan:                    For sure. He’s huge. Till’s a big guy to get down to 170. Trying to find the right balance where you’re big for the weight class, but you’re not diminishing yourself really drastically to get down to your weight class.

TJ Dillashaw:                 The [inaudible 00:54:40] to the thing that also entertains me so much, ’cause he’s a gold medalist. He wants to declare himself as the greatest combat athlete ever. “I’m a UFC Champion. I’m a gold medalist.” I’ll go out there and beat you in wrestling. MMA wrestling’s completely different. I’m the better athlete. I can beat him anywhere. I know I can watching him fight. That’s why I’m very excited about it. I think it’s the greatest thing for my name right now. It excites me a lot. It excites me a lot too to be able to show the science behind not only myself, but for my coach and Duane and the system. I’m all in, dude. Whatever we’re doing I’m 100% in. I don’t take any shortcuts and I want to show that. I want to show I can make 25s and be my best ever as well.

Joe Rogan:                    Now Demetrius is injured, right? He’s out for a little while. This is one of the reasons why the talk of the super fight is coming up. Demetrius is gonna need a few months so you can’t have an immediate rematch. Have they talked to you about it? Proposed?

TJ Dillashaw:                 There’s nothing that’s been like serious, but there’s been hints and we did a media tour together and they put us on camera together and had us talk shit to each other. They didn’t say that, know what I mean? ‘Cause everything’s real. Everything we do is real, but it’s like, “Oh shit. This is what you guys want. You really think you can beat me? Then fuck you, man. Let’s do this shit.” That’s where I get my motivation from from fighting is not the anger. It’s the competition.

Joe Rogan:                    And does he want to go to 35?

TJ Dillashaw:                 He told me face to face he’s willing to do it at 25s.

Joe Rogan:                    25?

TJ Dillashaw:                 That’s what he first said after the fight. He said he wanted the super fight. That’s what his idea is so he said going up to 35s I told him like, “If we’re doing this, I’m coming to 25s.” He had no problem with that.

Duane Ludwig:             He’s got more street credit to drop a division, [inaudible 00:56:18] a division.

Joe Rogan:                    Steet credit?

Duane Ludwig:             It’s TJ, right?

Joe Rogan:                    Hell yeah. Gives you more street credit for sure. Well it certainly does if you win the title.

TJ Dillashaw:                 And no excuses on the bigger man. I don’t want him to come to 35s and me whip his ass and be like, “Well it’s because he’s a 35 pounder.”

Joe Rogan:                    He’s a 35 pounder, too.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I’ll whip your ass [crosstalk 00:56:31].

Joe Rogan:                    He’s a huge 125er. He really is. You take out the weight cutting, there’s not much difference between you two guys.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Other than how much better I am.

Joe Rogan:                    Oh, shit.

Duane Ludwig:             But then that’s true.

Joe Rogan:                    Oh Henry hang on, but when you saw him and Dimitrius together, he’s a much bigger person.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, he’s thick.

Joe Rogan:                    How much weight does he lose?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Sudo?

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I don’t know.

Duane Ludwig:             I don’t know. Good question.

Joe Rogan:                    He’s gotta be in the 50s.

TJ Dillashaw:                 When he shows up to Fight Week he looks like he’s cutting weight already. When I show up to Fight Week I haven’t even really started yet.

Joe Rogan:                    For your pace and your endurance, that’s got to be a big benefit to know your body’s 100% healthy going in there in terms of not being dehydrated and there’s so many guys. You see them on the day of the weigh in you go, “I don’t know how the fuck you’re gonna fight in 24 hours.”

TJ Dillashaw:                 I think head trauma’s a lot more prevalent when you’re dehydrated. Going through camp, I’ve known some guys that have cut a lot of weight and it’s already hindered their careers because you’re having those all out spars. You have to go as hard as you can in sparring when you’re ready for a fight. You’re going for your timing. You’re fighting, right? You don’t do it all the time. There’s time that you-

Joe Rogan:                    So when you’re sparring, you’re sparring like a fight?

TJ Dillashaw:                 For the most part. I mean I’m not-

Joe Rogan:                    Larger gloves?

TJ Dillashaw:                 No. We’ve been doing smaller gloves when I’m sparring, too, but those puffies that I have they are I feel as padded as my 16s. It depends where they put the padding.

Duane Ludwig:             The padding on the knuckles is not thicker than 16 [inaudible 00:58:03]-

PART 2 OF 5 ENDS [00:58:04]

Duane Ludwig:             The padding on the knuckles-

TJ Dillashaw:                 I mean hammer-

Duane Ludwig:             Thicker if not thicker than 16 oz-

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    What companies gloves do you use for that?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Sanabul.

Joe Rogan:                    Sanabul.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Sanabul, yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Where’s that from?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Well their office in New York, but the guy, the owner’s living out here in California.

Joe Rogan:                    Is that a new company?

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s somewhat new. It’s not brand new, I think they’ve been around since 14, 2014. But yeah, they make great stuff. I mean they have their puffy sparring gloves are awesome to get real rounds in because when I grapple I can’t do full MMA rounds with big puffy gloves on, you know.

Joe Rogan:                    With boxing gloves, right?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, with boxing gloves.

Joe Rogan:                    But with those they’re puffy around the knuckles but you still grip with them.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah. I mean you can still grip with them, you got everything. I mean the only thing that’s different is, like, the padding on your for hammer, you don’t throw them, but like hammer fist or your thumb, you’ve got to be careful with your thumb. So you really have to be accurate with your punches.

Joe Rogan:                    And does it fuck with you if you’re working submissions with the extra padding on the knuckles?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, absolutely. I mean rear naked chokes are harder to get the hand behind the head and guys can get out of submissions easier because they can grab more of the glove even though they’re not supposed to.

Duane Ludwig:             Can I say something real quick because TJ was saying sparrings hard sometimes, right? So, I try to have my guys, if you don’t mind me saying, so sparring hard because you do have to spar hard, but we’d have him do that once a week, but we do a whole bunch of sparring drills throughout the week as well to get better technically, understand the distance and the timing, but you do need to spar hard, but it’s not like you’re hurting the guy. If he’s rocked or whatever you’re not going to knock him out but you’re throwing with good force too because you do have to experience that for sure. But-

TJ Dillashaw:                 If he’s rocked you just hit him to the body.

Duane Ludwig:             For sure, yeah, if you rock him then, you know, hurt him to the body and that’s what they all say, you can get hurt the body and work out of that as well, you know, don’t take a knee, but wanted to make sure that was clear because that’s one of the things I’ve been able to do is dissect the chaos of a fight and slowly manipulate it so we can actually understand the layers and get better at it and that helped a lot with the actual drilling, the sparring drilling, and the sparring, and then the fight itself, so understanding that ladder process.

Joe Rogan:                    Have you ever found any core drills or ab drills that allow you to absorb punches or kicks better? Is there anything that you’ve shown that, have you ever figured out if it really does-

TJ Dillashaw:                 I don’t know if it helps but we do it. I mean our coach throws medicine balls or like we’re doing motion movements or bouncing on a tire or doing almost like a burpee motion or something, getting back to your feet and slamming like a big medicine ball into your stomach. I mean I just think the impact without hurting yourself is gonna help ultimately and then just having a stronger core in general. I think cores by far the most important in MMA and jujitsu in grappling, is your core strength, is how strong your core is, because I can go and lift weights and this guy’s gonna be way stronger than me doing bench or doing deadlifts, whatever it may be, but we get on the mat and he’s like, “Dude, how the fuck are you so strong.”, I think it’s all core.

Joe Rogan:                    It certainly has a lot to do with kicking power.

Duane Ludwig:             Yes sir.

Joe Rogan:                    It’s so much of it. It’s not just the legs, it’s the ability to whip the hips into it. All this, it’s all your core.

TJ Dillashaw:                 And your cardio controls your breathing. I believe core is everything.

Joe Rogan:                    What kind of exercises are you doing for that?

TJ Dillashaw:                 The list is endless. I mean, a lot of medicine ball stuff.

Joe Rogan:                    Are you doing different things with Mr. Calavitta than what you were doing before?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yes. Yeah, completely. Actually the shit’s crazy.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah?

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s straight up crazy man. The first time I showed up, like, I knew it was gonna be hard, like everyone was telling me, “Oh, you go hard.”, I’ve never gone as hard as this guy pushes me ever in my life from all the years of me practicing or competing, but you can only do it so many times. You can’t do it all the time and he knows when the practice should be easier or when we’re gonna have those days when I’m for sure gonna throw up, you know, like what days I’m pushing the sled up the hill. We do a lot of cycling now. I’m on the bike constantly, but it’s not only for low base, it’s certain power intervals.

Joe Rogan:                    Are you doing distance, like actual bike on the road, or?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, I do that too. So if I fight 25s I’ll be doing a lot of roadwork, running, swimming. To make 25s I’ll be a triathlete as well. I’ll be doing some Cameron Hanes’ shit. Well I won’t be running that far, but I’ll be trying to act like Cameron Hanes to get smaller. Yeah, so I think the bike work does a lot for our core as well because your cores not only your stomach, you know, your cores from your hamstrings up to your back, throughout your stomach, it controls a lot. Even doing the bike work is a lot of core work as well too.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, people don’t realize that sometimes when you have lower back pain it’s because your hamstrings are too tight. You tell them that and they’re like, “What?”, and then they learn how to stretch out their hamstrings and they’re like, “Yeah, my back feels better.”, like, that’s what yoga’s all about man.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, we do yoga, I mean everything. I mean there’s so much behind what we have to do.

Joe Rogan:                    And how long has this guy been doing this?

TJ Dillashaw:                 So Mark Munoz was his first project in MMA. He wrestled, so he was a wrestler, always been around wrestling, always helped Mark with his wrestling camps, his kids wrestle, he’s got that wrestling mentality, but then he’s just a genius as well and so his first project was Mark Munoz when he was making weight and looking shredded, the Tim Boetsch fight, things like that. That was when he first started helping out. So that’s why it’s called the training lab as well, it’s spelt with rain in the middle. It’s because he was attached to Mark Munoz’ gym and helping him out.

Joe Rogan:                    And Mark Munoz’ gym for people who don’t know is called ‘rain.’

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yes, ‘rain’, yeah. And so it’s funny it’s come full circle, I mean Mark Munoz is the one that talked me into fighting. He was my coach at Cal State Fullerton wrestling and he was in the UFC at the time he was my assistant coach. After I graduated college, like all bummed I didn’t do what I should have and so I didn’t feel like I was done competing, I started following Mark around and doing jujitsu and all this shit and I was actually enrolled in grad school at the same time to become a physicians assistant. He pretty much talked me in to dropping out of school and giving fighting a chance because he thought I’d be good at it and now its come full circle and now he’s our coach again.

Joe Rogan:                    Wow.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Duane Ludwig:             He’s got some awesome MMA flow drills, Mark Munoz, yeah. He’s been good-

TJ Dillashaw:                 He’s got wrestling for MMA. Like you can’t just be-

Duane Ludwig:             Nice.

TJ Dillashaw:                 An awesome wrestler and come in and teach MMA wrestling.

Duane Ludwig:             Agreed.

TJ Dillashaw:                 You know, you got to know how to punch, you got to know the jujitsu aspects of it. MMA wrestling is its own sport.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, well there’s certainly rules that you have to follow that you don’t have to follow in regular wrestling. You know, that’s the case with jujitsu as well. It certainly helps to learn jujitsu. One of the things, I don’t know if you guys are paying attention to, but Eddie Bravo came up with a thing called combat jujitsu, which is sort of an intermediary step between regular jujitsu and MMA and it’s basically jujitsu with bitch slaps.

Duane Ludwig:             Pancrase.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, but some of those bitch slaps-

Joe Rogan:                    Like stop the palm strikes.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Well Bas figured out how to do it. He figured out how to pull his hands way back and he was basically punching you with his palm where you could hit anybody anywhere. You can hit them in the forehead, you don’t have to worry about your knuckles.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I feel like that’s harder than my MMA glove.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, I think so too. Yeah, I mean you can really put a beating on somebody with your palms.

Duane Ludwig:             Bas is an innovator for sure. He’s always thinking. He taught me how to think, how to be open minded and figure stuff out.

Joe Rogan:                    So here it is, this is combat jujitsu. That’s a guy on the ground I think, I hope.

Duane Ludwig:             You see, now that’s one of the things too, like how-

Joe Rogan:                    [inaudible 01:05:02] fucked up Jamie.

Duane Ludwig:             That’s where the whole ankle attack in the leg situation changes when it’s an actual fight and you have punches, right.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Jujitsu’s different.

Duane Ludwig:             You got to watch attacking those legs.

Joe Rogan:                    I mean you open up things the same way you would open up things with punches, you know, there it is, bam.

Duane Ludwig:             Is that one of my affiliate students from Montana with the blonde hair?

Joe Rogan:                    Roach has stopped quite a few people, well he’s stopped at least one person with just his slaps, but he’s used those slaps, you know, and Wagner, he’s got a big advantage in being a high level MMA fighter as well heading in to this, but the idea behind it was created by Eddie because he wanted to make it just a little more realistic on the ground, add this other element to it because there’s times where guys are going for leg locks and, you know, your face is wide open, you’re committing both your arms to the persons leg and that person’s in a position where they could just smash your face and if you’re used to that in the jujitsu gym where a guy can’t punch you and you think you’re safe and you always practice in that way, combat jujitsu’s a real wake up call when you just get fucked and hammered in the head.

Duane Ludwig:             It’s like our jujitsu instructor at our academy, Sam Kootz, he teaches jujitsu for self defense and then he asks you if you want to compete in jujitsu and he teaches you different jujitsu. He wants to find out, “Why did you come here?”, like, “Do you wanna get better, you want self defense, you wanna compete?”, because there’s a different way you have to approach things for sure which is why TJ can be on the same mat with regular students in my gym because he’s doing slightly of a different drill and combination with more contact than the average person, you know, so you’ll get out what you put in.

Joe Rogan:                    And in your academy do you have everything there? Do you have submission instruction, wrestling, or do you go different places for jujitsu? How do you do it?

TJ Dillashaw:                 The only thing I do not at my gym is my jujitsu, I go to Gracie Barra in Irvine with Phillipe Demonica.

Joe Rogan:                    Great spot.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah man, he’s a straight up ninja.

Duane Ludwig:             He knows jujitsu for MMA, just like you’re saying Mark Munoz does wrestling for MMA and I probably have striking for MMA, man, TJ has a really good camp around him. I would have liked to be in his position now with the understanding of martial arts, I’m not gonna hijack the podcast sorry, I’m just so happy for him.

Joe Rogan:                    Stop apologizing.

Duane Ludwig:             Well it’s his time, right.

Joe Rogan:                    No, it’s your time too man.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Like I told him the other day, we were texting about, “Damn, you were meant for this shit. Send me a sick ass video.”, it’s like, dude this is our journey though, you know, like I’m not doing this shit alone. If I was doing it alone it’d be a lot harder. I’m not saying I couldn’t do it, but I wouldn’t be to this level, I wouldn’t be who I am. I told him this is our journey, you know. I mean that’s why this shit works because I don’t have a bigger ego. I’m not like, whatever, you know, me and Duane really see eye to eye and he’s family.

Duane Ludwig:             I want him to be the best. Yeah, I love this guy.

Joe Rogan:                    It’s so critical, the relationship that you guys have, because I think he can add so much in terms of what he understand and your acceptance of him and your appreciation of him allows you guys to fully integrate to this one project of TJ Dillashaw world champion, like making you the best you can be. If there was any sort of conflict or you got to be number one or you don’t wanna listen to him, “I’m gonna do what I wanna do today.”, like that shit happens all the time with coaches and fighters. Sometimes you don’t hear about it until after the fight and you’re like, “What happened?”, like, “I got to tell you man, he didn’t show up for training, he was this and that, he’s got this new girlfriend, she’s pregnant.”

Duane Ludwig:             That’s why I’m all in, because TJ is all in. I don’t have a vast stable of fighters, I have a few guys that float through my place, right, I work with them a little bit here and there but TJ is all in so I’m all in.

Joe Rogan:                    Now one of the benefits of being in Colorado was the altitude. You don’t think so?

TJ Dillashaw:                 It depends where you fight.

Joe Rogan:                    What do you think?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Because you could train a lot harder at sea level, your body gets a little more dense, like the oxygen and your recovery at sea level is way better. I mean when I first started going up to Colorado and training at altitude I felt like my body wasn’t recovering. I felt older man.

Joe Rogan:                    Because the lack of air up there?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah. I think the lack of rebuilding myself. We do altitude training, we do altitude, it’s called AltoLab, something I breathe in to at certain times, certain time lengths, or like different intervals throughout the training camp instead of living and breathing altitude I’d rather get the recovery and the hard training from sea level and then use the altitude to get in that hypoxic state. So, the reason why less oxygen in the air, you create more red blood cells and the more red blood cells you have the more oxygen you transport and so I’m thinking if you go down to sea level you’re gonna have more oxygen to transport, but your body hasn’t been able to train as hard and recover as it can at sea level and then use the hypoxic state by breathing in the machine to get the red blood cell production. So you can get the benfits of altitude without having to live there.

Joe Rogan:                    What I had heard was that the best move was to train at sea level but live at high altitude.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I don’t think your recoveries good enough.

Joe Rogan:                    What about those-

TJ Dillashaw:                 From what my coaches told me, you know, so.

Joe Rogan:                    Well it makes sense. What do you think about those tents where people sleep in those tents?

TJ Dillashaw:                 I’ve tried one. It’s hard to sleep.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, why?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Because you’re pumping it up so it gets hot in there for one.

Joe Rogan:                    Plus you start thinking like that scene in Psycho with the fucking, in the shower, surrounded by shower curtains.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Just have nightmares and shit everyday. But no, when you’re not breathing much oxygen you don’t feel recovered and you don’t get a restful nights sleep, you know.

Joe Rogan:                    I see what you’re saying. That totally makes sense. Yeah, you definitely feel a difference and it totally makes sense that you would be able to train harder at sea level.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-hmm (affirmative), you can push your body to that super far extreme that you wouldn’t be able to get there at altitude.

Joe Rogan:                    But if you live at altitude for a few years doesn’t your body totally normalize to that?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, but then I’ll be fighting at sea level. Yeah, I don’t know enough. That’s just what I was told.

Duane Ludwig:             No matter where I’d fight, sorry ninja-

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, you’re good.

Duane Ludwig:             I knew no matter where I fought that I would always be ready to go because born and raised in Colorado so I didn’t care where I was and one of my goals was to get tired because I knew if I was tired that that mother fucker was dead tired, so let’s go.

Joe Rogan:                    Guys like Colavitta make my head hurt. But thinking about all these different things that he’s got you going, thinking about all his, the planning that must be involved-

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s a full time job. It’s a straight up full time job. Even the juicing I do everyday, if he didn’t do my meal prep it’d be impossible unless obviously my wife was doing it all. But it’d be impossible to get all that done. It’s so much.

Joe Rogan:                    And how many athletes is he working with?

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s a pretty small group and it’s growing now because obviously the name is growing and more athletes that-

Joe Rogan:                    And he’s still doing it as garage?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, it’s called the garage. We do it at the gym too, but there’s a small group of guys that still go to his garage and do it there. It’s kind of like our varsity team I guess you would say. Once you proved yourself enough in the gym, you can get, which has happened, guys have come to our gym, they’ve worked out with us, we got along with them, they become family and then we bring them in to the garage. So I’d say he’s got see, Cub, one, Aaron Pico, Syad, Spike, I don’t know, I’d say we probably got like 8, 9 guys that will come to his garage and workout.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s a great group right there. Just having Aaron Pico with you. That’s got to help.

Duane Ludwig:             Future world champion without a doubt.

Joe Rogan:                    For sure. He’s a savage.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Not only how good he is technically but mentally too. I’m competitive, I go hard and he’s another extreme. Dude, we do this hand pedaling for distance at the garage and we’re at a decline so our downhill and we’re doing these hand peddlers for distance and how far we can do, who gets to a mile first wins and I thought he won the world title when he beat me. Pretty much what I did to Cody, yelling in my face after the fight, you know, or after the hand peddler that he won. He’s very competitive, he’s very good technically, he’s hungry, he takes no shortcuts, he’s 21 years old and wasn’t taking any shortcuts. I didn’t learn all that shit until I was 30 and he’s already doing it now and he’s a world class wrestler, great boxer, he’s working with Freddy Roach a lot. He’s good man. He’s really good.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah and I think there’s an actual real gift in losing his first fight. Like there’s a gift in that because there’s so much hype behind him and he got cracked and submitted quick.

TJ Dillashaw:                 He pretty much just got finished the worst you could possible get.

Joe Rogan:                    The worst.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah. And his very first fight.

Joe Rogan:                    But other than a head kick.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I just mean-

Joe Rogan:                    Head kicks the worst because you don’t really recover very good for a long time.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Not only did you get knocked out but you got submitted as well and you did it in front of Madison Square Garden on the main card for your first fight ever, so he experienced the lowest lows for his first fight, so now it’s like there’s no going lower, everything’s skyrocketing now.

Joe Rogan:                    And everybody was so hyped up about him, there was so much hype about him which is deserved. But it just shows you that everybody can get caught, everybody can get finished and that experience I think is so valuable for him.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yep.

Joe Rogan:                    I really do and that left hook that he landed in his last fight, holy shit.

Duane Ludwig:             That’s two fights. Work the head, work the body.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, two fights.

Joe Rogan:                    Nasty.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s murderous. He’ll find that body shot every time I spar with him. Obviously you got to get ready for it and you can feel it but he finds it every time. Yeah, you got to be ready. And then you start worrying about the body shot and you’re opening yourself up. He’s good man, he’s really good.

Duane Ludwig:             That’s one thing I feel Mr. Coker of Bellator does pretty well is gives people the proper fights that help build them up, right. And I think Pico’s first fight wasn’t bad match up, he just got caught.

Joe Rogan:                    He got caught. He got caught by a tough guy. Yeah, you know I love Coker.

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah, me too.

Joe Rogan:                    I like what he’s doing and I’m supposed to be somehow or another in competition with Bellator. I say that’s horse shit, I mean I’m the one who got Jimmy Smith hired, I was trying to get him hired years ago. And I love the fact that big Johns over there now and that Goldies over there too and Moro, I love Moro. And there’s a lot of great fighters over there. I love the fact that Rory Macdonald’s over there, that he’s a champ. I mean if he’s not the best welterweight in the world it’s him and Tyron. I really think that.

Duane Ludwig:             Tyron, I got to practice that name. I’m sorry Tyron.

Joe Rogan:                    Just don’t have an E on the end of it

Duane Ludwig:             Yes sir. I’m on it.

Joe Rogan:                    But I mean he’s most certainly one of the best. Mousasi, one of the best 185ers in the world if not the best. I mean they have legit claim to world class fighters now and it leads two weight classes.

Duane Ludwig:             They got the banners, the fighter walk out, it’s like an old school UFC.

Joe Rogan:                    I like it. I like that the fighters are having a good time over there, they’re getting paid well.

Duane Ludwig:             I don’t hear any complaints.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, I want it to grow man, I want it to be right up there with UFC. I would love it if it was a full rival, like Pride was.

Duane Ludwig:             Man, I miss Pride. I left Pride.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I didn’t figure out a way to do that crossover fight. You can stay in Bellator, bill Bellator, but as far as UFC is and have this like, oh yeah, we’re fucking better now.

Joe Rogan:                    Well look, those are big fights like Canelo and triple G.

Duane Ludwig:             Yes.

Joe Rogan:                    Like if they had a Floyd Mayweather versus Connor Mcgregor MMA style, if there was literally a guy as big as one-

Duane Ludwig:             There was talks about that right?

Joe Rogan:                    Well there were talks about that for Floyd and Connor but I don’t think it was real. What I mean is a guy who gets as big as Mayweather has gotten in the UfC and guy who gets as big as he got in MMA with Bellator and then they have some giant ass fucking super fight, there’s enough for everybody. I just think for the athletes it’s better if there’s choices and it’s good for you, it’s not just choices it’s more competitive and when it’s more competitive they try harder to do a good job for the athletes, make it attractive to the athletes, like if you’re a football player you can go to a bunch of different places to play, right, but if you’re a fighter you got two spots, you got Bellator and you got the UFC. It’s like there’s two teams out there and I think that’s unfortunate, I think it’d be way better for fighters, I don’t think that boxing is a clean system and I think boxing definitely has its flaws in terms of promotion and how fighters are treated.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Like why do fights happen like triple G and Canelo when it should have already been over, like triple G won that fight.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, but that can happen in the UFC.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, it does.

Joe Rogan:                    Bad judging happens all the time. There’s some fucking terrible judges out there.

Duane Ludwig:             We’ve experienced that.

Joe Rogan:                    Fuck, it’s crazy man. It’s crazy that no one is doing anything to fix it. There’s people that have passed bad calls that should just be removed. So you don’t understand professional high level fighting.

TJ Dillashaw:                 There needs to be a grading system like if you see these judges and they’ve made like, “Look, this persons made four bad choices, you’re out.”

Duane Ludwig:             I think they should go through a training course and be tested on it just like I test my students for their ranking in the system, right. They should be able to go through this information and get better and pass the test or not judge the fight or let a fight go through and let some quality judges judge it and then test those results versus their results, right, how do they judge it and compare those notes to see, because we’re dealing with people’s careers and their livelihood and lot’s on the line if these people aren’t making the correct decisions from their lack of education. They can definitely get better at it. So hopefully they start brewing, sorry-

Joe Rogan:                    Oh no, please go.

Duane Ludwig:             When they start pointing some old folders, maybe ex folders, retired fighters, as far as being the judges but the maybe there’s some that’d hold back on that, what do you think-

TJ Dillashaw:                 Biased.

Duane Ludwig:             Biased, yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s totally possible but I think you’re better off with those fighters and their bias than someone who really doesn’t understand the sport.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Because they’ll be afraid of being called out too. If you continue to see the decisions that they’re making, like, they’d be afraid to get called out for it.

Joe Rogan:                    And you know, just don’t have them judge someone who they have a close relationship with, right, if like Frankie Edgar is fighting you don’t have Ricardo Almeida as a judge.

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah, because he’s a part of the commission. That’s right.

Joe Rogan:                    Even though I think Ricardo is awesome, he’s great. But you need people that understand martial arts and a lot of the people that are judges that just have no background which to me is crazy.

Duane Ludwig:             Agreed.

Joe Rogan:                    It just doesn’t make any sense when it’s not like there’s a shortage of martial arts practitioners out there. There’s millions of us. We’re out there. You can find us and you can get us to be judges.

Duane Ludwig:             I’ll judge some fights.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, there you go man. And I think also we’ve said this before, I’ll say it again, there should be more than three judges. There’s no reason to limit it to three. All you need is two dummies and they ruin a fighters career. You can get bad luck and have two dummies out of three, that’s not hard to do. Two people who really don’t understand a fight. You need at least five and I think we’d be fine with 10. I don’t think there would be anything wrong with having 10 judges. That way if you really got a five, five, that’s a real draw and I think real draws are real too. There’s fights where like you go, “Jesus, I don’t know on that fight. I’d have to go over that fight with a fine toothed comb.”, and the difference, the distance between winning and losing is so close I think you’re better off arguing for a draw in some fights, I don’t think there’s any shame in that.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I agree. If it actually was that close, why not it be, you know.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah because there’s some fights where the guy gets the decision or the girl gets the decision and you’re like, “How?”, they both won, I mean it’s a fucking incredible fight, one goes home a loser the other person goes home a winner and it’s almost like flipping a coin.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Overtime.

Duane Ludwig:             When I used to lose fights-

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s a draw, overtime.

Joe Rogan:                    Glory does that still.

Duane Ludwig:             I would just say I came in second place, I never actually lost. Try to ease it a little bit.

Joe Rogan:                    Glory does still the, “One more round!”

Duane Ludwig:             That’s right. Yeah, they still do that.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I feel like that would be cool as shit.

Joe Rogan:                    That would be fucking wild if you guys both-

TJ Dillashaw:                 Like you’re getting up there ready to announce, “Oh, I fucking won this one.”, like, “Aw fuck, we got another round, alright, let’s do this.”

Duane Ludwig:             Sweet.

Joe Rogan:                    Split decision, you’re standing there like, “Oh, jesus.”, “We have a majority draw.”, and you’re like, “Oh, no.”, the audience would go nuts if you had that. Only for championships.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Only for championships, one more round.

TJ Dillashaw:                 That’d be cool man.

Joe Rogan:                    People would start pounding on the ground and shit.

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah, nice.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It should be like a 10 minute round too.

Duane Ludwig:             Pride style.

Joe Rogan:                    Pride style 10 minute round was awesome for grapplers.

Duane Ludwig:             And the gloves too.

Joe Rogan:                    Pride gloves were excellent, yeah?

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, you think that’s a big factor right, the curve of the gloves?

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah and my boxing coach Trev Whitman is working out some kind of gloves that are eliminating the eye poking situation. I’m not quite sure exactly what he’s thinking, but if there’s anybody to do that job it’s him.

Joe Rogan:                    I love that dude.

Duane Ludwig:             He is why I’m as technical as I am, is from Trevor Whitman. He’s very detailed.

Joe Rogan:                    One of the things that a lot of people were almost like wondering or down on him or trying to look for something to criticize was when Justin Gachi knocked out James Vick, cracks him, drops him, smashes him, stops him, everyone is going crazy and look at Trevor, Trevor there just sitting there like this.

Duane Ludwig:             He knows, yeah. He knows.

Joe Rogan:                    He didn’t jump up and scream. He just had his arms crossed and see if you can find that-

TJ Dillashaw:                 He just expected it.

Joe Rogan:                    Not only did he expect it, he was like quietly satisfied. I was like, “Look at that dude.”

Duane Ludwig:             It’s like Tyron after his title.

Joe Rogan:                    Sort of. Woodley cried when he got his back belt, did you see that?

Duane Ludwig:             That was cool.

Joe Rogan:                    That was crazy?

Duane Ludwig:             Din Thomas too. A fellow fighter like that, that’s awesome.

Joe Rogan:                    I mean he was like, “Wow.”, like that felt more to him than winning, that’s so crazy that that would feel more to him than defending his title.

TJ Dillashaw:                 He’s been world champion. He knows he’s world champ. He’s confident, you know.

Joe Rogan:                    Without a doubt one of the best welterweights of all time, without a doubt. I feel like there’s three guys in the running. It’s Matt Hughes, George St Pierre and him.

TJ Dillashaw:                 He’s just so athletic man.

Joe Rogan:                    So good.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s crazy how athletic he is.

Joe Rogan:                    And with Din, with Din in his corner and with Duke Rufus and he’s just coming into his own man. And people criticized him for the Damian Maya fight and the wonder boy Thompson fight because those fights were boring. That’s the way you have to fight those guys period. If you wanna fight wonder boy you think you’re gonna go crazy and charge at him, good luck.

Duane Ludwig:             Not a good idea.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, you’re gonna eat some knuckles.

Duane Ludwig:             So going back to the training method, you know and thats’ one thing, I wonder how much time Duke is spending with him and Dean is spending with him, Din, Din Thomas, Din is spending with him and then taking that skill and testing it against all the other ATT guys. I was wondering how much classwork he’s doing versus one on one work and then how much live work he’s getting with the crew.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s a good question. I don’t think they’re doing too much work at ATT because ATT is where Coby is right now too.

Duane Ludwig:             Oh, so where’s he training at because I haven’t seen much-

Joe Rogan:                    Well he did a lot of it at Duke Rufuse’s he spent a lot of time with Duke but I don’t know exactly where he trained his whole camp.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Peda said he was at Duke’s.

Joe Rogan:                    He was at Duke’s, yeah. Well he looks fucking phenomenal. Duke’s figured out a way to get him to really conserve his energy and manage it properly too because we all know that when someone’s that big and that-

TJ Dillashaw:                 That fast twitch.

Joe Rogan:                    It’s so hard to maintain endurance but he hurt wonder boy in the fourth round of their fight and hurt him bad. Like he carries that knockout power deep into the fight, so he’s figured it out. He’s figured out a way to manage his energy correctly and if you see the countdown shows too he’s doing a bunch of crazy strength and conditioning shit too which I kind of think everybody has to do now.

Duane Ludwig:             That’s the piece-

TJ Dillashaw:                 We’re going ESPN, it’s a real fucking sport. You can’t take shortcuts. Like I told you, my training schedule’s a full time job. It’s hard for me to get anything else done when I’m in training camp.

Joe Rogan:                    Now, when you’re not in training camp like now, you’re out of camp, how many days a week you working out?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Lately I’ve only been doing my strength and conditioning with Sam. So when I’m back in town a couple times a week. I’m gonna go back out to Colorado and I’ll be spending every day at Duane’s doing kickboxing. I’ll probably start going to Gracie Barras. This is all fun, I’ll go to do normal class. Right now at Sam’s it’s not like I’m peaking for a fight so it’s just maintaining my body and keeping certain things strong to prevent injury and then I’ll go to Gracie Barra and I’ll probably roll some gi just to do it, just to kind of stay active.

Joe Rogan:                    When you roll gi do you grab the gi or do you just try to do no gi techniques?

TJ Dillashaw:                 I need to get better at learning how to grab the gi, I still do no gi techniques because that’s what I always do.

Joe Rogan:                    I would never really use a gi. I hardly ever use a gi.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s not my favorite.

Joe Rogan:                    But I wear it, but I don’t use it. I just do no gi with gi on and they grab me but I just do no gi stuff.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, that’s why you got to go in there for fun, you can’t go in there expecting to be great because there’s so much shit if you don’t know it they’re grabbing your belt, pulling you in certain directions.

Joe Rogan:                    There’s crazy shit that they do like pull your thing out, your lapels out-

TJ Dillashaw:                 Try to choke you with it.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, they’ll pull the back of your gi out and wrap it around your neck, like, alright, settle down. But I mean for the gi competition as long as that’s all legal that’s great, but I mean for someone learning martial arts whether it’s for self defense or for me what I found about doing gi is it really improved my no gi submission defense because it was so easy to control me with the gi. So if someones grabbing your collar and grabbing your sleeve, they hold you down, you have to get out of things technically, like if you get locked up in an arm bar you can’t just explode out of things, you have to figure out a way to slowly incrementally release yourself the right way and defend everything the right way because if you get too deep with all that friction with that heavy canvas gi they can lock you up. You have to be technical in your defense.

Duane Ludwig:             I still don’t really-

TJ Dillashaw:                 It makes you more meticulous about your submissions.

Joe Rogan:                    Especially defense.

Duane Ludwig:             I mean if you’re gonna compete in jujitsu then where a gi but if it’s for self defense then I would actually train with no gi.

Joe Rogan:                    I say that but if you’re in New York and you’re wearing a leather coat in the winter, dude, imagine what Ronda Rousey can do to someone who had a winter coat on. You talk shit to her with a jean jacket on, bitch you’re flying on your head.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Hell yeah you are.

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah, rolling with typical clothes though right, because even that’s gonna be different than an actual gi.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Even if it’s enough to grab, you know, you could choke somebody out with a regular collared shirt. You grab a hold of a regular dress shirt and you get a hand in the lapel, that’s a dead man. He doesn’t even know it. Just get a hold of that collar and pull that fucker in.

Duane Ludwig:             Exactly.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Kind of like what you were saying like changing who I am because of where I’m at in my life and my family now, like, I wish I could train more outside of fight camp, I wish I had more time to get in the-

PART 3 OF 5 ENDS [01:27:04]

TJ Dillashaw:                 I wish I could train more outside of fight camp, I wish I had more time to get into gym and train, but I’m going everywhere, getting pulled in every direction, creating businesses to try to set up my future.

Joe Rogan:                    I know you got your seasoning business, I’ve used your seasoning. It’s excellent

TJ Dillashaw:                 Flavor Republic.

Joe Rogan:                    Did you come up with this on your own?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yes, I started it because of my new diet with Sam Calavitta. I had to eat super clean. I wanted low sugar, and I wanted something that was low sodium or no sodium, so that when I’m cutting weight I can still use it. But we make our own sea salt, organic sea salt as well, so that we can add it too when we want to. Because you need sodium, you need good sodium. But when I’m wanting to flush the water I don’t use it, so …

Joe Rogan:                    You sent me over a bunch of stuff, it’s great man-

TJ Dillashaw:                 Thank you.

Joe Rogan:                    I’ve used a lot of it-

TJ Dillashaw:                 Thanks.

Joe Rogan:                    Seasoning meat with it all the time.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I just used it last night. I’m actually into the company and like it.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s cool.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Especially for wild game and things like that. It’s cool man, it’s really, really fun.

Joe Rogan:                    Do you have a pellet grill? Do you cook with those?

TJ Dillashaw:                 I do, I have a Traeger.

Joe Rogan:                    Those things are the shit.

TJ Dillashaw:                 They sent me one of those bad ass ones, it’s a …

Joe Rogan:                    They sent me one too. A Timberline?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yes. Dude, you got meat thermometer, everything with it, it’s sweet.

Joe Rogan:                    I love that thing. I cook on that thing almost every night.

TJ Dillashaw:                 The taste is the best too.

Joe Rogan:                    Well it’s all wood, it’s natural wood. For people who don’t know what a pellet grill is, there’s a bunch of companies who make real good ones. We have Outback we have a Yoder that’s really good, I had a Green Mountain Grill, that’s a really good company. Green Mountain Grills are very affordable too and they come also with a built in thermometer, just like the Traeger has.

Joe Rogan:                    What you do is, you pour wood pellets … And these pellets are made … If someone makes a table like this, the saw dust from an actual table, they just compress it and the natural sugars in the saw dust force it to form into these little pellets, these little tubular pellets and you can snap them with your fingers. But they go through this worm drive onto a heating element and it’s just fire and wood. That’s all it is. You’re cooking your food with fire and wood. It’s all complicated and electronic and shit, it’s all sophisticated and engineered, but at the end of the day the result is, fire and wood. And the food tastes like fire and wood.

Duane Ludwig:             Natural.

Joe Rogan:                    Fucking great.

TJ Dillashaw:                 That’s what … They have different pellets for different taste, and you can taste the difference, absolutely.

Joe Rogan:                    I love pellet grills man, I’m such a big fan. It’s such an easy way to cook too. And that Timberline, just maintains its temperature perfectly.

TJ Dillashaw:                 You can start it with your phone. You can connect it to your phone, so if you wanna heat it up before you get home, you just start heating it up.

Duane Ludwig:             So much technology.

Joe Rogan:                    Traeger has an app, they have an app … I was gonna cook lobster tails. I went, ‘How do I cook lobster tails in Traeger?’ Go to the fucking app. It tells you what to have, what ingredients, how to do it, all of it on your phone, it’s fucking incredible.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I’ll get you one for the house.

Duane Ludwig:             I’ll take it. I have room, thank you sir.

Joe Rogan:                    So you didn’t get an elk tag this year?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Man, well I have a, I’m going with Chad Mendez for a riffle. But-

Joe Rogan:                    Where are you guys going?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Colorado.

Joe Rogan:                    Alright.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I don’t know exactly the area we’re going, it’s something set up through Fins and Feathers, his company. He has a guide service called Fins and Feathers-

Joe Rogan:                    I know, that’s awesome.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Dude, he’s living the life man.

Joe Rogan:                    He is, he loves it.

TJ Dillashaw:                 He even told after his last fight, ‘I’m not fighting until next year. It’s hunting season, my business …’ He loves it man-

Duane Ludwig:             Good.

TJ Dillashaw:                 He’s awesome, he’s a …

Joe Rogan:                    Good friend.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Good dude.

Joe Rogan:                    It was nice to see him come back and come back with a beautiful knock out.

Duane Ludwig:             Really good.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I mean, that’s still one of my very close friends, and so we’re doing a hunt here, end of October for riffle. But my love is archery, so I didn’t get an archery tag this year for elk.

Joe Rogan:                    Can you hunt with your bow during riffle season?

TJ Dillashaw:                 I think you can, yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    The thing about riffle season is though you’re dealing with … They’re not rut anymore.

TJ Dillashaw:                 They’re not in rut. Right now, we had a video of being up in Colorado, just 20 yards from two big elk fighting, they didn’t even know … I was standing up, these two were standing up, didn’t even know they were there. Just 20 yards away. I mean, that’s why …

Joe Rogan:                    Wow.

TJ Dillashaw:                 That’s why you get to do archery during the rut season.

Joe Rogan:                    Dude, I live for it, I love it so much. To me, it makes me so happy that I have my meat for a year. You shoot an elk, basically I have meat for a year. And for all my friends, now I’ve gotten all my friends like Bryan Callen and all these guys addicted to elk. Tom Popa, I give them pounds of it man. Constantly giving them elk sausage and elk steaks. It’s like once you taste that natural wild meat you go, ‘Oh man.’

TJ Dillashaw:                 And just learning how much healthier it is for you too.

Joe Rogan:                    Do you feel different when you eat it?

TJ Dillashaw:                 That’s all I’ve ever eaten, I grew up that way. So I grew up hunting because of my dad. My dad’s been an archery hunter.

Joe Rogan:                    Your dad is a wild man, I met your dad. You can tell right away. I’m like, ‘Okay, how are you doing man?’

TJ Dillashaw:                 That’s where it all comes from. My dad’s …

Joe Rogan:                    Nice to meet you Mr Dillashaw.

TJ Dillashaw:                 He’s always been the baddest dude I’ve ever known. He’s always just a … His game is taking me on crazy hunts where we would hike our ass off, go hike 20 miles and work really hard on public land, it’s never been the easy thing, it’s always been as hard as we can make it.

Joe Rogan:                    Nice.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s made me really fall in love with hunting even more.

Joe Rogan:                    Those back country hunts man, people are starting to catch on to what an adventure that is. And these guys like my friend Aron Snyder who runs Kifaru, it’s one of the best backpack companies in the world, they make hunting backpacks and wilderness backpacks … And it’s like, you used to be able to go eight miles down the trail head and there would be nobody. He goes, ‘Now you go there, there’s three tents.’

Joe Rogan:                    Because other guys are learning how to do this too and they’re realizing this … Especially high country mule deer, which is insanely difficult animal to hunt, because they’re so switched on because every day they’re running from mountain lions. Every day is like, is that a mountain lion, is that a mountain lion, why was that branch.

TJ Dillashaw:                 They’re so fucking smart.

Joe Rogan:                    Is that a fucking mountain lion?

Duane Ludwig:             They’re sketched out.

Joe Rogan:                    They’re so sketched out. When you get to a five year old deer, which is what everybody wants to shoot … What they want is a four, five, an older deer. You’re getting this giant deer, they’re probably 300 pounds, they have enormous antlers. I mean, mule deer have this crazy racks.

TJ Dillashaw:                 All knotted up, crazy.

Joe Rogan:                    All knotted up, crazy. And they’ve been hunted since day one.

Duane Ludwig:             Makes sense.

Joe Rogan:                    Everyday of their lives, they’ve been 5 years … It’s like a fighter who’s been fighting in the championship level for five years. You ain’t getting away with no sloppy bullshit with him.

Duane Ludwig:             No.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Exactly, that’s a good way to put it. That’s perfect.

Joe Rogan:                    You can’t snap on branches and they don’t notice you’re there.

TJ Dillashaw:                 They fucking turn nocturnal as well. I went out five days before opening day, and saw two, three pointers and a big four pointer, right in that area I’m going to go hunt. And then ten days later I go out, because I missed the opening day, but ten days later.

Joe Rogan:                    Too late.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I know. Ten days ago after they’re gone.

Joe Rogan:                    They go nocturnal, they hide and they just realize that people are after them. They’ve been doing it so long that hunting season is literally factored into their nocturnal clock.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Their DNA.

Joe Rogan:                    They just realize it. They go, oh, well there’s the people, I know what this is. They go, I know what this is, time to get the fuck out of here.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I’ll eat at 2:30 instead of regular …

Joe Rogan:                    They’ll just … Especially during full moons and things like that. It’s really interesting man, once you experience these … I mean, even though you’re not in the hunting … I always advise people, just please, just go hiking deep into the back country, just take a six, seven mile hike deep into the back country and just … It’ll put it in perspective for you.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Those two and a half days I spent in Colorado I hiked probably 20 miles by myself with no one, and I didn’t get anything, I didn’t even see an animal. I found one dropped horn of an elk, I didn’t see shit. And I still loved it. I still came out, I was like, I’m glad I did it. Hike my ass off, was out there my cell phone didn’t work it’s just …

Joe Rogan:                    When you go out there, do you bring a spotting scope?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah. I pack it.

Joe Rogan:                    So you bring a spotting scope … Spotting scope, binos, the whole deal.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Rangefinder.

Joe Rogan:                    Are you looking at Google Earth in advance or?

TJ Dillashaw:                 I’m looking at … What’s the app I use …

Joe Rogan:                    onX Hunt?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yes. It’s onX Hunt. So it kind of downloads the area where you’re at, so that when you’re …

Joe Rogan:                    Shows you where it’s public, where it’s private.

TJ Dillashaw:                 And you can even download the app, so when you don’t have service you can still use it. It knows where you’re at.

Joe Rogan:                    Right.

TJ Dillashaw:                 And you know if you’re on private property, if you’re on public land. It maps, everything out for you that way.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s an amazing app. But just being able to see the territory and know where the basins are and the ridges are …

TJ Dillashaw:                 Water holes.

Joe Rogan:                    And get a sense, what time of year is it … I mean, it’s not just going out to get food, there’s really a science to mule deer hunting.

TJ Dillashaw:                 And what the weather has been like. If it’s been hot, they’re gonna be high country, they’re gonna be really high if it’s been hot. You want it to be overcast and cool, so they’ll come out more in the day, because they’ll bed down … When it’s hot, they bed down all they long, and that’s why they come nocturnal as well, it’s cool enough for them to expend energy to go get food. To where if you go in the middle of the day at twelve o’clock, you have to spot them with your binos laying down and hopefully sneak up on them and not let them see you or wait for them to get up and start feeding and then sneak up on them.

Joe Rogan:                    Now when you go out there, do you have the creeks mapped out or you hauling in water? How are you getting water?

TJ Dillashaw:                 I’ll always take those pills with me to build …

Joe Rogan:                    Purify water?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Purify the water.

Joe Rogan:                    Iodine tablets?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yes, iodine tablets.

Joe Rogan:                    They say you’re not supposed to drink too much of that though.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I’m sure you’re not, but I don’t go hunt …

Joe Rogan:                    Right.

TJ Dillashaw:                 24/7.

Joe Rogan:                    Right.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I mean, worse case scenario, at least I’m not gonna go out there and get giardia and get lost.

Joe Rogan:                    Right.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I can at least purify some water. And I have a lighter … Well I have a canteen so it’d melt … But anyways.

Joe Rogan:                    Do they heat it up?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, they will heat it up. But I know where the water holes are, I always know that. And I bring enough water for me to drink and I pack it in to camp too. Luckily this spot in Colorado wasn’t very far from where I had to park my truck, so I was able to drive in a bunch of water.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s cool. It’s a …

TJ Dillashaw:                 With my dad though, we hike back in the Ruby’s 20 miles and then hunt back there, hopefully not finding anybody … Like you said, you still find people. But we have to bring the iodine pills or we have a pump and then we …

Joe Rogan:                    Pumps are great.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Obviously we packed in pots and we boil it and drink … Usually we boil it back at camp, but if you’re out and about and you only have your canteen on it, you’ll fill it up, throw an iodine pill in it and shake it around and ten minutes later you got clean water.

Joe Rogan:                    You don’t want in that beaver fever.

TJ Dillashaw:                 No, I don’t know … Especially being 20 miles …

Joe Rogan:                    Must be rough.

TJ Dillashaw:                 20 miles out, think how bad that would suck.

Joe Rogan:                    It’s beautiful country though man. I mean, to be able to go out there into that back country Colorado where there’s no people, you just realize it doesn’t even look real. It looks like … You find a mountain lake up there, feel like this isn’t even real. This can’t be real, this looks like a movie.

Duane Ludwig:             It’s beautiful.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Pictures you take don’t look like you just got them off the internet. That’s cool.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s out near you man, I mean you picked …

Duane Ludwig:             I don’t ever hunt though. I need to.

Joe Rogan:                    Do you eat it? Do you eat it?

Duane Ludwig:             I’m sure I … Yeah, I have had some steaks at his house for the last camp actually. So … We got those from the Kings Men Coffee guy, Mark

TJ Dillashaw:                 Also, we had both.

Joe Rogan:                    What kind of diet do you follow?

Duane Ludwig:             Actually when I’m in California with him, Sam’s family makes me the same meals … Well not the same … I don’t know if they’re exactly the same meals.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Pretty much the same.

Duane Ludwig:             But I eat the same meals as him. And I usually eat pretty clean too. When I did my hair analysis with Sam, all my levels and stuff came back pretty good. I was pretty baseline or healthy for the most part.

Joe Rogan:                    Are you training or just training people? Do you train yourself at all?

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah, I still train, I stay sharp. I gotta lead by example and I love it. So, this is what I’ve done since I was eight, starting with the Kyokushin Karate and just been on it since then.

TJ Dillashaw:                 And when you come to the Training Lab and throws the gear on and holds the mits for me, cub one.

Duane Ludwig:             It’s fun.

TJ Dillashaw:                 He just did three hours of holding mits. He’s getting to work out doing that shit, just the impact and moving.

Joe Rogan:                    Of course.

Duane Ludwig:             I don’t just stand there either, I got to give them the feel and the reactions and throwback. And I get to play UFC a little bit without getting beat up, so it’s fun to still again live vicariously through these guys, but I still definitely do training. Again, lead by example and stay sharp.

Joe Rogan:                    Have you ever thought about one day … I mean, you’re in a weird situation where you could potentially go to 45 and you could potentially go to 25. You could be champ, champ, champ.

TJ Dillashaw:                 My coach told me, when I first started working out with Sam and I was fighting Cody the first time, he was like, I’m gonna make you a three division champ. That’s our goal, I want you to be the first one ever to do it. He’s always reaching for everything and the way I know I could do it too is because I can pack the weight on with him too. I’ve gotten up to 158 pretty sold before I went down to 35s the first time.

Joe Rogan:                    Max Holloway, who’s the UFC 145 pound champion is a fucking big guy.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I don’t think he’s so big.

Joe Rogan:                    He’s so big.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Eventually he’s probably a three fifty fiver.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah. I don’t know how he does it. When they had to medical stop him from cutting weight to make 55, when he’s a 45 pound champion.

Duane Ludwig:             Oh wow.

Joe Rogan:                    He started in around 85 pounds.

Duane Ludwig:             Oh, Jesus.

Joe Rogan:                    How crazy is that?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Ortega’s big too, man.

Joe Rogan:                    Big.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Dude, he’s a big dude as well.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah. These 45 pounders, right now. Look I wish there was a way to stop all this nonsense. I wish everybody did it the way you’re doing it. Where you’re just a little bit over weight.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yep.

Joe Rogan:                    Have you ever been heavier before where you had to cut.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-mm (negative)

Joe Rogan:                    Never. So this has always been your weight.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah. Good thing too is I always trained at the weight I’m going to be the night of my fight. If I weigh in at 135, I’ve going to be 150 when I walk into the cage, so I train at 150. When I want to fight at 25s, I’d probably walk into the cage weighing 140 or low 40s. I’m going to train at low 40s.

Joe Rogan:                    Mm-hmm (affirmative).

TJ Dillashaw:                 And that’s why my camps are longer. I get in shape before I start my camp because I want to know exactly what that feeling is of what the night’s going to be of being in the cage. I want to be in shape, I want my weight to be where it’s supposed to be. It’s the same exact feeling for my whole camp.

Joe Rogan:                    It’s got to be satisfying for you to have all these changes, take all these chances, go through all this emotional shit with leaving alpha male, but the results prove themselves that you were making the right choices for your career.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Very satisfying. I’m building my own everything. It’s all kind of finding a place in this because I’ve surrounded myself with the right people. I’ve followed Duane because I believed in him. I came back to southern California because I believe in Sam. There’s guys like Steve Martin, that I was talking about before, that made that possible. There’s just these, for whatever reasons group of guys that I’ve just gotten around that’s just synergistic and it works. That’s why I’ve been really focused on. I’ve been to a lot of gyms that are money driven or ego driven and to make sure that’s not the case. You might be an awesome fighter, but if you don’t have the right mentality you’re not part of the training lab. You might be the best fighter in the world, but if you’re a cancer we’re not going to let you work out there. Kind of really treat me like we’re professional athletes. I am treating you like we’re professional athletes, instead of before I was just a fighter.

Joe Rogan:                    Have you seen that really across the board there’s much more of an attitude of a professional athlete versus just some bad ass guy who wants to fight and kick ass. You’re seeing people approach it much more scientifically now.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    How much has that change since you were on the Ultimate Fighter?

TJ Dillashaw:                 A lot. A lot. When I first got in Ultimate Fighter I was alpha male and we sparred four or five days a week.

Joe Rogan:                    Was that 2012?

TJ Dillashaw:                 11 I think? Yeah. 2011 and then it aired in 2012.

Joe Rogan:                    So you think about that, that’s not that long ago, we’re talking about six, seven years. So in seven years the sport’s radically changed?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Big time.

Joe Rogan:                    Wow.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Big time. I mean it’s also because of how big and how mainstream the UFC’s getting.

Joe Rogan:                    Mm-hmm (affirmative).

TJ Dillashaw:                 We’re going to be on ESPN, we’re on FOX. We went from Spike … the more and more mainstream we get the more legit it makes it, and the more legit it is the more science behind it. The more that … why wouldn’t guys who are as smart as him Calveda go for football because there’s money in it. There’s exposure behind it.

Joe Rogan:                    Mm-hmm (affirmative).

TJ Dillashaw:                 Calveda when he was fighting he was so raw and just whatever.

Joe Rogan:                    Right.

TJ Dillashaw:                 But now I feel it’s so legitimized those smart trainers and now the guys fighting forever are now coaches. It just makes it more legit and you have more science and the ways to train behind it.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah. No, it’s real exciting.

TJ Dillashaw:                 But it’s still growing and I feel like we’re on the cutting edge of everything. We don’t

Duane Ludwig:             That’s true.

TJ Dillashaw:                 We don’t miss anything. This is by far, out of any place I’ve ever trained, the most scientific and smart way to train.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s so exciting man.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Thank you.

Joe Rogan:                    It really is.

Duane Ludwig:             TJ’s got a bump in the martial art evolutionary chain as far as how many people were switching stances and having that fluid flow before TJ stepped into the cage. Not that many.

Joe Rogan:                    Not that many at all.

Duane Ludwig:             He’s definitely leading the pack.

Joe Rogan:                    When Dom switched his legs back and forth, but …

Duane Ludwig:             No attacks.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah. He didn’t fight the same way righty as he did lefty. The way you do.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Kind of like, you see it no in boxing too …

Duane Ludwig:             Terrence Crawford.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Terrence Crawford. He’ll come out orthodox because he’s right handed, but he’s like, ah I’m going to do better against this guy south paw. And he stayed south paw the rest of the fight, because he sees that advantage and being able to do that. Boxers used to say, never switch your stance. Your defense won’t be as good.

Duane Ludwig:             Make it that good.

Joe Rogan:                    Marvin Hagler used to switch all the time. He was one of the greatest of all times.

Duane Ludwig:             There’s orthodox to the south paw and then there’s a whole world of what you can do offensive and defensively during the change of the stance that people … yeah, so we can’t put secrets. Speaking over the edge here.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s one thing to switch your stance to fight better in that stance, but then what about the strikes while switching your stance.

Joe Rogan:                    Yes.

TJ Dillashaw:                 In those crazy motions where I’m coming this way, but you’re over there. I could fight, it’s almost like fighting two people at once.

Joe Rogan:                    Mm-hmm (affirmative).

TJ Dillashaw:                 To create those angle and to take advantage of them. And they have to do the slow turn to stay in their stance kind of thing.

Joe Rogan:                    No. There’s fantastic advantage.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s the fucking Matrix, I’m telling you. This shit is fun.

Duane Ludwig:             I’m going to have to start mapping out the killer shot MMA series, you have a bunch of MMA flow drills going.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Hell yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    I’m really excited about the switch to ESPN, too.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Really excited about getting the UFC on ESPN.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah. That’s a big deal, man.

Joe Rogan:                    ESPN is such a huge venue for sports.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Rogan:                    There’s so many just hardcore sports fans.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It is sports. When you think of sports it’s ESPN

Joe Rogan:                    Sure. And you think of sports bars that have fights on. They’re going to have ESPN on.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yep.

Joe Rogan:                    So many people just turn their TV on they put on ESPN, and that’s like all day long.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Rogan:                    Real sports fans. They’re going to get a chance to see guys like you.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Rogan:                    Real high level fighters.

Duane Ludwig:             Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Joe Rogan:                    And ESPN has also been putting on real world championship boxing events, which is very exciting.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Joe Rogan:                    If they’re going to do that and then they’re going to start putting on real high level championship UFC fights as well, people are going to get a chance to compare and contrast and see like, wow. I think it’s going to open up a whole new world.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Joe Rogan:                    I think FOX was great.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yep.

Duane Ludwig:             Yes.

Joe Rogan:                    What is it, like 80 FOX Sports channels and no one knows which one the fuck it’s on.

Duane Ludwig:             There are a lot of FOX channels, right?

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah. It’s crazy.

Duane Ludwig:             I remember years ago when my Japan [inaudible 01:45:06] trips, we went to a restaurant and they were showing some fights on TV and we lost our shit. We were like, holy shit, they’re showing fights on TV. Japan’s so cool. Now it’s out here all the time. Thank you Daniel White for Tido Brothers for UFC for making it mainstream. They and you as well Mr. Rogan for having bringing martial arts to being so popular as it is now. You guys have helped the evolution of martial arts come to life. It’s fun.

Joe Rogan:                    It is fun. People are getting a chance to see where it’s at right now. Which I don’t think, if someone hadn’t seen a fight like your fight with Cody, or your first fight Henna Bural was a great example. Your second fight was really like a blowout.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Rogan:                    I feel like in the second fight, he knew you were going to fuck him up before the fight even started.

Duane Ludwig:             Got to evolve.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah. He didn’t evolve. If you see these high level world class fights, I think if people just got a look of what’s going on right now at the top levels they’d get hooked.

Duane Ludwig:             Mm-hmm (affirmative).

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Rogan:                    Real quick.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-hmm (affirmative). You do a great job of teaching people. The commentators as well as people involved in journalist of MMA need to teach the average fan what to look for.

Joe Rogan:                    Yes.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I feel like you’ve done a great job. You’ve helped our sport grow because of that, of not only hyping the fights up but making people knowledgeable of MMA.

Duane Ludwig:             We need to teach the judges.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

Duane Ludwig:             [crosstalk 01:46:26] Give them a seminar.

Joe Rogan:                    I’ve already done the best job, they’re out there still.

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    I just don’t understand what commissions are waiting for. I really don’t. I don’t get what’s the hold up, just these people are incompetent. Fire them, get new people in. It’s not hard to do. I don’t believe it’s hard to do. I think a motivated person could fix the entire system inside of a year.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I don’t feel like they’re worried about their job. If they make a bad decision, if I ruin your career, if I steal millions of dollars out of your pocket, ah.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah. I wonder if they understand that aspect, they doing to people’s career.

Joe Rogan:                    I don’t think they care. They’re just doing their job and they think they’re insulated from it.

Duane Ludwig:             Jobs. I don’t have a job.

Joe Rogan:                    They have to be accountable because they have a name. Their name gets … Adalay Bird scored the fight, ba-da-ba and you hear that, so they’re accountable somewhat and people hear certain names and they’re like, not this fucking guy.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Rogan:                    You know that guys giving some shitty ass decisions in the past, but …

TJ Dillashaw:                 Oh yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    It’s not enough and if you just left it off … if you ran through a computer and looked at all the bad decisions and all the judges that called these bad decisions.

Duane Ludwig:             Rate them like an Uber driver?

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah. You just get rid of them. Just anyone who just gets a D or below, just get rid of them.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yep.

Joe Rogan:                    You really, no, anyone who gets below an A. People are going to make some questionable subjective decisions. Some people like a submission game, some people like a striking game, some people think a guy takes you down no matter what, he’s on top you win.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yes.

Duane Ludwig:             Yes.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I feel like, if said is not going to matter as much now, but if you have a take down and have no damage, like that take down didn’t even count.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Which I believe in because it’s really who’s winning the fight not the position we’re in right then. Me being a wrestler, I could take people down just wait for me to be on top, but that’s now how MMA should be scored.

Joe Rogan:                    No I agree, and I think that if a guy does some damage standing up and then you take him down, hold him down for a full minute, but nothing happens. He did more damage standing up

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    And there’s lots of judges who think that if you take someone down, you’re on top, you win. And they can’t think that way.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    It’s just not wise, especially when guys are battling off submissions off their back.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Rogan:                    Or getting busted up with elbows from their back, there’s just … Did you see Nico Price’s fight where he won from his back.

Duane Ludwig:             Oh yeah. Trapped with the foot and he hammered fisted him. That was sweet.

Joe Rogan:                    He hammered fisted him from the bottom.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Okay.

Joe Rogan:                    Knocked him out. It was one of the craziest. Who did he fight?

Duane Ludwig:             I don’t remember who that was. Man I get excited.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah he fought off his back, won by hammer fist.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Okay.

Duane Ludwig:             That was cool.

Joe Rogan:                    We’re realizing, you’re not really safe. There’s things that people can figure out what to do in weird different places.

Duane Ludwig:             Find a way to be successful.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah. I just, as much enthusiasm as you have about this sport, of you and myself and a lot of other fans, I want the judges to have that kind of enthusiasm as well.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    I want them to go into these fights knowing what they’re looking at. Here it is right here. Oh yeah like right before that. Does it show it. Look at this.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Oh wow.

Joe Rogan:                    From his back, hammer fist him unconscious.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Oh wow.

Joe Rogan:                    Fucking crazy.

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    I’ve never seen that before in my life.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Me neither.

Duane Ludwig:             I don’t know if you would see that in a curriculum or not, but definitely is an opportunity.

Joe Rogan:                    In that position it’s a good place to be.

TJ Dillashaw:                 When guys start seeing it happen, they’re going to go for it more.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

TJ Dillashaw:                 They’re going to see fighters go for that.

Joe Rogan:                    Well the Travis Brown, the elbow.

Duane Ludwig:             Oh yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    From defending the take down.

Duane Ludwig:             Josh Burnet right?

Joe Rogan:                    Travis started KO-ing people, he KO-ed Josh Burnet, he KO-ed Gabriel Gonzaga same way.

Duane Ludwig:             Yep.

Joe Rogan:                    He flat lines people from that position. With those long ass crazy elbows.

Duane Ludwig:             Do you take different alpha brain than I do?

Joe Rogan:                    What do you mean?

Duane Ludwig:             You’re sharp. I think you might have some stronger alpha brain than I do.

TJ Dillashaw:                 This is is job. His job is to know this stuff.

Joe Rogan:                    I think it’s you’re alpha brain turbo that we’re working on.

Duane Ludwig:             Really?

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

Duane Ludwig:             Is it here now?

Joe Rogan:                    Oh no I have it at my house.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Is it just a stronger version?

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah it’s got some extra shit in it.

Duane Ludwig:             I was asking Aubrey about that a couple of years ago.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah. Our original alpha brain was giving people headaches. We had to adjust it along the way. Some people, Aubrey says the weaker people.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I was just about to say that. [crosstalk 01:50:26] You can’t take alpha brain, you know what I mean

Joe Rogan:                    It’s a dose dependent thing and it’s also, there’s people who get headaches and they drink caffeine. And there’s people who can’t drink milk.

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    There’s a lot of biological variability.

Duane Ludwig:             Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Rogan:                    What this is, is a more potent version of alpha brain. We’re pushing the boundaries a little bit. So we’re going to run some tests on it and we’ve got some trials and I’ve been taking it.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Nice.

Duane Ludwig:             Send me a couple, I’ll test it for you.

Joe Rogan:                    I’m a fan.

TJ Dillashaw:                 You’re a fan?

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah it works.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Got some DNT in it, little bit of alpha brain.

Joe Rogan:                    You know what I really like too, I’ve talked about this before, is Neuro one. It’s Bill Romanowski’s company. He’s got a great neutropic supplement.

Duane Ludwig:             Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Rogan:                    I like it, it tastes good too. I drink the chocolate.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I feel like, Bill Romanowski now the way I walk around my supplements and stuff. He’s got a tackle box of them. I do, man. When I travel now, I have a whole suitcase full of supplements.

Joe Rogan:                    Do you really?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    No matter where you go?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Even if you’re on a couple day road trip somewhere, you bring in all your supplements with you.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I have those divider packs that have three of them.

Joe Rogan:                    You don’t fuck around.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-mm (negative).

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Even on my hunting trip.

Joe Rogan:                    Really?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Oh yeah man.

Joe Rogan:                    Wow.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I was …

Joe Rogan:                    You got to eat clean.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah. I do.

Joe Rogan:                    I busting those mountain house fucking fettuccine Alfredo.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Dude.

Joe Rogan:                    Drink all those freeze dried, farts are so bad though.

TJ Dillashaw:                 But once you been so clean you know how it feels.

Joe Rogan:                    Mm-hmm (affirmative).

TJ Dillashaw:                 And then off your fight you eat like a fucking asshole for a week.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s like, dude I got to stop this shit. I feel depressed, I feel horrible. I got to get back into eating clean.

Joe Rogan:                    How much time did you take off after the Cody fight? The second one.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Food, nutrition wise?

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

TJ Dillashaw:                 A week maybe. Or maybe …

Joe Rogan:                    Went hard.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Even then it’s not the whole day. It’s just, I’ll have one bad meal, ah fuck I shouldn’t have done that. I’m going to feel that shit.

Joe Rogan:                    What is it about it, wanting a pizza because you know you shouldn’t have it. Looking at that pizza going fuck it we’re going in.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah. Now it’s, I’ve never used to be a sweet tooth, but now it’s sugar.

Joe Rogan:                    Really?

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s desserts. I used to be more, I’ll eat more pizza, steak, whatever it could be. Now since I haven’t been eating sugar, I want to drink a soda, I want a donut.

Joe Rogan:                    A regular soda.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Regular soda, yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    When I drink a regular soda, the first thing I think, I can’t believe people drink this.

Duane Ludwig:             Oh yeah, regular sodas.

Joe Rogan:                    People drinking this shit all day long. I don’t drink it, so when I drink it my bodies like, what the fuck are you doing stupid?

TJ Dillashaw:                 I had a Mountain Dew after the fight …

Duane Ludwig:             That’s right.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I felt hungover the next day.

Joe Rogan:                    It’s weird how your tolerance drops too.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yep.

Joe Rogan:                    If you don’t eat sugar anymore and then you take it in, the first thing that happens to me. I’ll have an ice cream sundae, I just have to sit down. I’m like uh.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Dude the sugar is the root of all evil, man.

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah it is.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s so bad.

Duane Ludwig:             Not good for the body.

Joe Rogan:                    High doses.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    People who walk around with a two liter Pepsi and just chug it.

Duane Ludwig:             Ah, man. Yeah.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Man.

Joe Rogan:                    How many fucking servings are in a two liter Pepsi? Some people drink that whole thing in a day, easy.

TJ Dillashaw:                 You see the truck drivers with those big gulps.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Going around everywhere with it.

Joe Rogan:                    Just feeling their arteries with bullshit.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Black insides.

Joe Rogan:                    Their guts, all that fat, gut fat, just lower abdominal fat.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Pushes into your balls. Lifts up your belt. Chug it. Let me get another Pepsi.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Just so uncomfortable.

Duane Ludwig:             Sodas that are, that have the Zevia sodas. Those ones taste good. Those are really good.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Awesome.

Joe Rogan:                    Zevia are great.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Those are awesome.

Joe Rogan:                    I drink those all the time. Guilt free.

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    The difference between them and a Diet Coke in terms of flavor, I actually like them better. When I drink Diet Coke, it’s chemically.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It tastes like chemicals. Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Where Zevia just tastes like a good flavor.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Rogan:                    But it doesn’t make you feel like shit. There’s no glycemic index. There’s no change in your sugar levels. You just taste good.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It almost feels like there’s no way there’s no sugar in it.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, I know. This stuff Zevia is an interesting thing. Because too much of it, it tastes like shit.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah it’s got a weird after taste, right.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah. You got to, it’s so potent. You just need a touch. But when you put it in your coffee, like I’ll put it in there like sugar. And I’m like whoa.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yep.

Joe Rogan:                    Rough.

Duane Ludwig:             It is different.

Joe Rogan:                    What other stuff does he have you eating that you weren’t eating before? Is there any concentration on different kinds of greens, or?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Dude, I juice like crazy now.

Joe Rogan:                    And you’re juicing mainly green stuff?

TJ Dillashaw:                 A lot of it.

Joe Rogan:                    Do you blend or do you juice?

TJ Dillashaw:                 No. I juice. I do a masticating juicer, a cold press juicer.

Joe Rogan:                    Mm-hmm (affirmative).

TJ Dillashaw:                 You got to … if you use something fast like a blender, it kills a lot of the nutrients.

Joe Rogan:                    Really?

TJ Dillashaw:                 And you absorb more … even if you were just to eat this giant table of raw food.

Joe Rogan:                    Mm-hmm (affirmative)

TJ Dillashaw:                 You would absorb less of it than if you juiced it.

Joe Rogan:                    Really? Why is that, because it goes right into your blood stream?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Something about how your body breaks it down. So something about the cold press juices is your body is absorbing it more. That’s a have to. Even when I’m traveling I don’t have my juicer, I end up buying it, which is good. But I have to drink some sort of green juice every day.

Joe Rogan:                    Mm. And are you taking it with any kind of fat? What I heard, especially with vegetable juice, that your body absorbs it better with fat.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yep.

Joe Rogan:                    With coconut oil or avocado oil or something like that?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Do you do that?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yes. We have to do a certain kind of MCT oil. I take tablespoons in the day and at night to help absorb. Not only that, but then the eubricrinal goes with it to help rebuild red blood cells. Do a bunch of.

Joe Rogan:                    What is eubricrinal?

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s also some sort of oil. I take them in a pill. But some sort of oil that helps with the transport chain of … I don’t, I couldn’t even tell you.

Joe Rogan:                    You have to get.

TJ Dillashaw:                 If I get Sam in here, he’d probably try to hold back.

Joe Rogan:                    I want to get him in here.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Dude you should. He’d be very interesting. I almost don’t want you to because that’s where all my secrets are.

Joe Rogan:                    Oh.

TJ Dillashaw:                 He’s my secret weapon.

Joe Rogan:                    The thing about secrets man, there’s people who just wouldn’t listen anyway.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yep that’s true.

Joe Rogan:                    There’s so many people that would and would listen and wouldn’t really follow it.

PART 4 OF 5 ENDS [01:56:04]

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, that’s true.

Joe Rogan:                    There’s so many people that would, they would listen-

Duane Ludwig:             I would listen.

Joe Rogan:                    … but they really wouldn’t follow it. You would?

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s a full-time fucking job though. You know what I mean? Like you can’t be lazy and do Sam’s shit.

Joe Rogan:                    I can’t imagine how you could be. It seems like you have to be on top of it all the time.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I don’t have time in the day to do all the shit that he has me doing, as well as training.

Joe Rogan:                    Do you take the MCT oil with the green juice?

TJ Dillashaw:                 You can, or just take it.

Joe Rogan:                    For people that don’t know what that is, the medium chain triglyceride oil is derived from coconut oil, so it’s the more nutritious form of coconut oil. You can take it with … What was explained to me is you’re better off when you’re taking something that’s as nutrient dense as juice, cold pressed juice, that you really should take it with a fat, and it’ll help your body absorb the nutrients better.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I don’t know.

Joe Rogan:                    You don’t know?

TJ Dillashaw:                 He never told us that.

Joe Rogan:                    Okay. Maybe I’m wrong.

TJ Dillashaw:                 No, I don’t know. I mean, he doesn’t know everything, I’m sure, I know, but …

Joe Rogan:                    Take kale shakes, I always add either coconut oil or, usually I add both, coconut oil and MCT oil to it.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I mean, I think that’s not bad for you, so why not? You know?

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I don’t know if it’s better or not, but I know it’s not bad for you.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, now what is your ratio, like fats to protein? Do you know what that is or does he map all that stuff out?

TJ Dillashaw:                 He maps all that out and depending where I’m at and how my body’s recovering. Yeah, I’m high fat, high protein diet, low to no carb. Obviously, different kinds of carbs. I have to have carbs but just … Like I won’t be ketogenic, but I’ll get my body into ketosis certain times throughout my camp to make me insulin … Like sensitivity high, right? I’ll eat like simple carbs that break down faster.

Joe Rogan:                    They’ve found that people, even on this carnivore diet, which a lot of people are doing now, they still reach ketosis. They still reach ketosis because they’re not taking in any grain, they’re not taking in any carbohydrates, even though your body converts protein through glucogenesis, it converts it into sugars, into glucose, it’s doing it in a very efficient way and processing it in a way that a lot of these people are in ketosis all the day, most of the time. Just not, not the same like high levels if you were going … Like a regular ketogenic diet, I think it’s supposed to be 70% fat, something crazy, or 60 something percent fat, and then the rest protein.

Duane Ludwig:             Wow. Did you tell Jordan Peterson that? Isn’t he eating all meat?

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, he’s eating all meat. I don’t, I think … I had his daughter on recently as well and it’s very controversial. Particularly for his daughter, because his daughter’s giving paid nutritional consultation, but she doesn’t really have a background in nutrition. She’s just showing people what really has worked for her, and her experience and her background. I think her and her father, Jordan, I think he has a serious autoimmune issue, like serious. I think it’s very possible that there are some people amongst us that are allergic to almost everything.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Wow.

Joe Rogan:                    They have allergic reactions to all kinds of different foods. I think it’s really, really rare. I think for most people like you or I, you’re really better off eating rich, dark green, leafy vegetables and nuts and fish and chicken and wild game. I think if you get some wild turkey or some wild pheasant, you should eat really good, lean, healthy, real food.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I’m with you.

Joe Rogan:                    I think most people can eat apples and oranges and watermelon, and there’s no problem. I think there are a few people amongst us, and I think Jordan’s one of them, where his body just fucking rejects things.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Wow.

Joe Rogan:                    I think his body has terrible reactions to all these different things and going on an all meat diet has cured his depression, got him off on antidepressants for the first time in more than two decades.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan:                    It reduced his weight back to the weight it was when he was 25 years old. I just don’t think it’s a viable or intelligent diet for everyone.

TJ Dillashaw:                 For the masses, yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah. I just think it’s a good diet for people that are very extreme in their nutrition requirements because they have some serious autoimmune issues.

TJ Dillashaw:                 If you have autoimmune issues, you should definitely go towards keto.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Sam’s gotten rid of my psoriasis. I didn’t even know you could get rid of it, but it got rid of my psoriasis with my diet. I mean, they say it could be from the stem cells too, but I believe it’s from … I did so much stuff, but the diet.

Joe Rogan:                    Well, I know several people that have gotten rid of their psoriasis through that. I think Jordan is actually one of them as well.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Okay.

Joe Rogan:                    He had psoriasis and he also had some serious gum disease that he was having for his whole life, gone, as soon as he got on this carnivore diet, and it’s just, I mean, he’s just eating beef, that’s it. I mean literally, he drinks water and eats beef, that was it. He’s not taking any vitamins-

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s like, that’s got to be bad for your like …

Joe Rogan:                    You would think so.

Duane Ludwig:             Isn’t that how Brock Lesnar got hurt, right? He-

TJ Dillashaw:                 I was going to say-

Joe Rogan:                    Brock got diverticulitis. Anthony Bourdain told me that sometimes people get diverticulitis from all sorts of reasons, from like eating, you could like have a seed, like a fucking, some seed from some plant that you ate gets stuck somewhere in your lining, and it gets infected, and you can get diverticulitis from that.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Oh, wow.

Joe Rogan:                    He said diverticulitis can come from a lot of different things. I think Brock probably wasn’t even chewing. I think he was probably swallowing animals whole-

Duane Ludwig:             My dog does that.

Joe Rogan:                    … Out in the wild. He’s like grabbing fucking gophers and shit and just chucking them down, “Yaaah!” and screaming naked on the top of a hill.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    That sick fuck.

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    I’m really bummed out that WWE ever had him. I really feel like if Brock Lesnar had just gone from amateur wrestling …

TJ Dillashaw:                 Dude, he was a beast in college wrestling.

Joe Rogan:                    A beast, he’s a beast. If he just completely dedicated himself to mixed martial arts from the jump, I mean he’s already … Look, he knocked out Randy Couture, he battered Frank Mir. I mean, he submitted Shane Carwin. He already has an incredible resume for a guy that was a WWE star, a multi-millionaire star before he ever fought his first MMA fight. Just such a savage, it was just beating inside of his heart so bad that he wanted to do it, but came in and did it, really did it. Lost to Kane, lost to fucking Overeem. I mean, beat Mark Hunt, even though Mark Hunt says he was cheating. Seemed he might have been correct. Mark went on a rant today about Brock Lesnar.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Oh, really?

Joe Rogan:                    He called him, “A cheating piece of shit,” and he’s mad that he’s coming back to the UFC. He’s got like a legit claim.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, for sure he does. I mean Brock’s only fought the top of the top. He’s never fought like a warmup fight, he’s never came in and had a warmup fight.

Joe Rogan:                    I don’t watch WWE, but they say he’s shrinking.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Oh.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, they said if you looked at him …

TJ Dillashaw:                 USADA’s about to come in so …

Joe Rogan:                    Going, “Ha, ha.” They’re already, they’re getting a testing pool.

TJ Dillashaw:                 They’re going to be knocking on your door … Oh, he already is. That’s why he’s getting smaller. Because they’re knocking on your door 6:00 in the morning.

Duane Ludwig:             That was the problem when he fought Hunt, right? There was some stipulation where he wasn’t going to be tested or something?

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, there was some weird loophole.

TJ Dillashaw:                 He retired, and when you come back, you’re supposed to go through like a four month testing before you’re even allowed to accept a fight, and they waived that four month of testing and they just … He was getting tested once he came back but he didn’t have to have that four month of testing without having a fight. That’s from what I heard.

Joe Rogan:                    USADA …

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Boy, USADA’s changed the game, kids.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Rogan:                    Changed the game.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Hell, yeah.

Duane Ludwig:             Indeed.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I look better than I did back then. I’m jacked city right now.

Duane Ludwig:             Yeah, nice. Sam, Sam, looking awesome.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I’m feeling better, I’m looking better. Like, it’s awesome, man. The professionalism, and it’s going around, like around our spot’s just, it’s just made me continue … I mean, I’ve always been hungry, but just like the science behind it, and me being able to go, three different weight classes and it being real, and just me being the baddest man on the planet, has got me like ready to go.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s the only photos they have, before and after?

Young Jamie:                I’m trying to find a better one. I’m- [crosstalk 02:03:31]

Joe Rogan:                    Try to pull one up again. I didn’t see much difference there.

Duane Ludwig:             I missed the line. Pull that up, Jamie.

Joe Rogan:                    Anybody who stands or sits the way Brock is sitting in the one on the right, [crosstalk 02:03:40] the way his arms are spread wide.

TJ Dillashaw:                 No matter what, he’s going to be big.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, he’s still going to be 265 fucking pounds.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Jesus, yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Okay, well there you kind of get it. Yeah, yeah. He’s losing some size, definitely, but he’s going to keep a lot. He’s definitely going to lose a lot. The thing that’s going to fuck with his head, if anything does, is when you are on steroids for a long time or anything that jacks up your endocrine system the way we’re assuming he did, when it’s …

TJ Dillashaw:                 He’s already gotten caught.

Joe Rogan:                    I’m trying to talk like a lawyer.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Sorry.

Joe Rogan:                    You’re assuming he did, his endocrine system’s got to be struggling, and he’s 40 years old now, I mean, it’s not-

TJ Dillashaw:                 He’s only 40?

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Wow. You’d think he’d be producing nothing but estrogen.

Joe Rogan:                    He might not even be 40, he might be 39. How old is Brock Lesnar? He’s 49 or 39 in Viking years. The age difference.

Young Jamie:                41.

Joe Rogan:                    41.

Young Jamie:                41.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

Young Jamie:                Close enough.

Joe Rogan:                    He’s got to get in now, while he can, you know?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, heck yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    What do you think you did that elevated your testosterone?

TJ Dillashaw:                 I think my recovery, so not redlining my body all the freaking time. I trained too hard, like I always went too hard. I always wanted to do more. I’m an old school wrestler like, “More is better, more is better. Train harder, train harder.”

Joe Rogan:                    That’s not better.

TJ Dillashaw:                 No, so my recovery, big time. I’m listening to my body. Your heart rate variability when you’re sleeping, it’ll tell you when you wake up how recovered you are and how hard did you push it that day. Being the CEO of TJ Dillashaw and deciding … Even if it’s on the schedule that I’m going to go hard the next day, but I wake up not recovered, call everyone like, “Hey man, I’m not coming in today. I got to go walk around with the family. I’m not training, taking it off.”

Joe Rogan:                    You know by, how many heartbeats difference? Like …

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s not the heartbeat, it’s-

Joe Rogan:                    It’s the variability.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s the variability, so sometimes … Your heart shouldn’t just beat every second, it should be like .8, 1.4 seconds.

Joe Rogan:                    Right.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Like it’ll tell you that your central nervous system is not worn out, so when you’re getting sick or you’re overworked, your body will tell you from your heart rate that it’s about to happen.

Joe Rogan:                    Right.

TJ Dillashaw:                 If you can catch it … If you don’t listen to it and you just keep going, like you go down this deep hole that you’ll never come out of, but if you catch it right away … No matter what, your body’s always going to do peaks and valleys, but you want your valley to be lower and your peaks to keep getting higher. Valley low, keep getting higher. The way to do that is through your recovery, which is going to help your testosterone production, your growth hormone production when you’re sleeping, as well as my supplementation, what aminos I’m taking and why and when I’m taking them. The arginines, the 21-blend aminos, like I’ll take them all different times.

Joe Rogan:                    When do you take them?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Usually three times a day. Sometimes I’ll take certain things at nights, certain things in the morning, depending on what it’s supposed to do for me. Like my ornithine, my glycine and my tryptophan I take at night before I go to bed because it helps my testosterone, my growth hormone boost. Some things I’ll take during the day because it’s better for my energy system, my ATP production. Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    He’s just got all this mapped out for you.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, man.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s amazing.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, he’s …

Joe Rogan:                    How many people could he possibly do that for though?

TJ Dillashaw:                 He would have to teach other coaches to do it. He’d have to do like a mentorship where coaches would come in and they would train underneath him, and then hopefully stay with us. That’s the thing, like if you teach someone too much, they can go do whatever they want and they can have the science … Eventually, it’ll get out to where you’re going to see the tests, you’re going to see what he’s doing and people are going to want to come learn how to do it.

Joe Rogan:                    For heart rate variability, do you sleep with a chest strap?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Rogan:                    A wristwatch that registers everything?

TJ Dillashaw:                 You don’t have the wristwatch on, but as long as it’s close enough to register your heart strap, yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    What are you using? Which one?

TJ Dillashaw:                 I’m using Suuntone, or is it Suunto?

Joe Rogan:                    Suunto?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Suunto, yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Oh, okay. They make hunting watches as well. [crosstalk 02:07:29]

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, the make awesome hunting watches.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, the best.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, like GPS trackers, everything. Yeah, I use one of those.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, those are great. Then, so what do you do? Do you take the data from that and you put it on a PC? Like how does it work?

TJ Dillashaw:                 He’s got an algorithm and so I … My watch is connected to my phone.

Joe Rogan:                    Okay.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Then Sam is logged in to where-

Joe Rogan:                    Your watch is physically to your phone or it’s through an app?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Through Bluetooth.

Joe Rogan:                    Through Bluetooth, okay.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It’s an app, yeah, so that …

Joe Rogan:                    The app shows you …

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, the app, I can put in my information and it sends it straight to Sam’s computer.

Joe Rogan:                    Oh.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Every morning, he checks in the morning-

Joe Rogan:                    He logs in and gets your data.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mine. He’s got a list of people that he checks, depending where they’re at. Like right now I’m not doing it, obviously. I don’t need to track my recovery, but when I’m in camp, he’s tracking my recovery and he’ll let me know in the morning, “Look, man, you’re 84% recovered, let’s pick it up” or “You’re 20%, you need to chill.” You know?

Joe Rogan:                    Right.

TJ Dillashaw:                 He’ll decide … My week-to-week, you have an idea what it’s going to be, but it always changes.

Joe Rogan:                    How many times do you think, on these days where you looked at the results and said, “Okay, I’m taking the day off,” would you have just said, “Don’t be a pussy, and push through this shit”?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Oh, yeah. I would of easily, I mean, “I don’t feel that bad,” but then the next, my next training practice, “Damn, I fucking feel good. I’m primed and ready to go.”

Joe Rogan:                    Is it hard to do that?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yes.

Joe Rogan:                    Take your foot off the gas?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Even in the past when I’ve redlined my body and didn’t know the science, I’ve had to pull back, but now that I know it, it makes it easier for me to do it, but it’s still very hard. It’s still very hard to not do more, not do more.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

TJ Dillashaw:                 My dad’s taught me, “Work your fucking ass off. Work hard, work hard. Work harder than the next guy.”

Joe Rogan:                    Work hard when you’re working, but know when to not work.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yes.

Joe Rogan:                    I think that applies to life too, I really do. I think if you just burn it out all the time …

TJ Dillashaw:                 Just like I was saying, if like if your sole focus was fighting, I’d burn myself out.

Joe Rogan:                    Right.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I have to have these escapes. I have to be able to do other things. I have to enjoy family time, I have to go golfing, I have to go hunting, I have to get on the lake.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Even during fight camp, so I have … I used to be like fight camp was fight camp, that’s all I did, but now going with Sam and having these days off, I get to spend more family time. I get to actually do shit I like on certain days. Like I have two days off a week, and we spread them out in different times. Sometimes I might have three, sometimes I might have more depending if I’m getting sick or I’m overworked, but I can actually get to go do shit. I get to go wakeboard.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s nice.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Now, is there anything else that he’s got you doing that’s weird that we haven’t … Like are you doing any e-stem? Are you doing anything …

TJ Dillashaw:                 I mean, it’s always changing. We’re getting really big into like the extra recovery stuff, the cryo’s, the light therapy, the CVAC machines, the … Excuse me. Hypobaric chambers, when to do them and how to test everything. Everyone has always known they’re good for you, but I don’t feel like there’s been the exact numbers behind it, and now he’s going to track it kind of thing, so we’re getting more into that realm of it.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I use an AltoLab that helps with me getting my hypoxic state to do altitude training, to where I’m breathing in that for an hour a day, and that’s, I’m going anywhere to like 40,000 feet, but there’s only like certain like lengths you can do it for. You have to take, like for instance, like doing like six minutes off, four minutes off, or three minutes on … Like and tracking what my body’s doing the next day.

TJ Dillashaw:                 What else we’re doing? Obviously, my diet, my supplementation we talked about. I mean, just the crazy workout stuff he’s got us doing too. Like I said, it’s kind of like Rocky training, but it’s a shit ton of core work. His warmup is not a warmup. His warmup is usually everyone else’s workout. He’s pushing us to our lactate threshold, to where like you want to throw up, you’re done, and then we’re doing muscular endurance, so …

Joe Rogan:                    Wow.

TJ Dillashaw:                 We’re not doing any kind of strengthening until I’ve pushed that limit, so maybe I’ve hit hard ground and pound, when you stand up and you have muscle pump and you can’t go. You don’t have that anymore because you’re used to … Your lactate threshold is higher now, so …

Joe Rogan:                    Wow.

TJ Dillashaw:                 If my lactate threshold is higher, then I’m not going to be able push myself to where I have that pump. Get to that point so you know what it feels like, so mentally, if I ever get to that point in a fight, I’m okay because I’ve been there. As well as when you get there and you work out past it, a smart way, then it’s going to increase your lactate threshold and your lactate … It’ll take you longer to get to that point.

Joe Rogan:                    When you’re doing strength and conditioning work, you’re exhausting yourself before you’re doing strength work?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Not always, but yes, yeah. Some workouts aren’t as hard as others but yeah, the ones that we’re … Like what I’d say, the hardest I’ve ever worked out in my entire life was that kind of shit.

Joe Rogan:                    Wow.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, to where you think like … Especially when I first started doing it, I’d be like, “All right, nice, that was a good work out, dude. Good job.” “All right, we’re almost over, let’s hit the garage, we’re lifting.”

Joe Rogan:                    You’re like, “Oh, no.”

TJ Dillashaw:                 Or, “We’re hitting the pool, we’re swimming,” so yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Damn.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah. He’s rough, dude.

Duane Ludwig:             “My girl just called me. I need to go, Coach Sam.”

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    “Got to go, look at the time.” [crosstalk 02:12:18]

TJ Dillashaw:                 Every time I drive up the street-

Joe Rogan:                    “Look at the time.”

TJ Dillashaw:                 … like I know it’s strength conditioning day, and I always pull up, and like I see the stop sign right before I turn left to get to his house. I’m like, “Fuck, I could just keep going. I don’t have to turn left. I don’t have to go do this shit.” If you’re in the garage and you continue to come back, you’re a sicko, you like this shit.

Joe Rogan:                    Now, how do you organize that, strength and conditioning days, and what precedent, like what importance does strength and conditioning take over skill work? Like, and how do you organize that?

TJ Dillashaw:                 That’s something that still is always going to have to be developed depending on person to person, who needs more skill, and who’s … Obviously, you never have it completely, but some people need more skill training than others. If you’re getting in there … Like when I first started MMA, I probably shouldn’t have done strength and conditioning for a year and a half, I should have only done skill, because I needed to catch up. I’m to the point now where each camp changes with technique and I’m obviously going to continue to grow. That’s why my camps are so long. I’ll do more skill outside of camp time and more getting my body ready. I don’t know if I’m answering your question but …

Joe Rogan:                    You are.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It always changes.

Joe Rogan:                    You don’t want to burn yourself out that hard and then spar, right?

TJ Dillashaw:                 That’s still something like, we’re even learning with Sam still too. Like he’s obviously a wrestler and he knows training, and he knows strength conditioning and that’s why we listen to our heart rate and that’s why every coach is … That’s something too is that at our team, every coach is going to talk to each other. They’re all on the same page. We know, like they know what days they’re going to be off. Like no one’s going to show up to the gym today. If they do, we’re going to go light because we pushed it yesterday. It’s never going to be like, “The strength and conditioning coach’s job is to kill you and now you go into wrestling, he’s going to kill you too.”

TJ Dillashaw:                 Like we’re all on the same schedule, so that we know that maybe Wednesdays are our active recovery, so if you’re going to go into practice, you’re just drilling, you’re moving light. You’re not going hard, because you got killed the day before. When you’re at your peakest, hardest days, your next day’s either off or an active rest day. Do yoga, go do some yoga, get your mind off it.

Joe Rogan:                    Does he have your weeks planned out in advance, or is he doing it day-to-day? Like how’s he … Do you know what you’re going to be doing?

TJ Dillashaw:                 I don’t know …

Joe Rogan:                    He knows?

TJ Dillashaw:                 He plans out everything in advance and obviously-

Joe Rogan:                    The whole camp?

TJ Dillashaw:                 My whole life. For him, camp is … Dude, he’s like my life coach, man. Like even after this fight he’s like, “All right, let’s not change the diet. I don’t want your psoriasis coming back. I don’t want to have to work from ground zero. I want to like stay this so we can keep building,” so he’s like my life coach. I feel like I’m cheating on him when I’m eating a cheeseburger when the bun’s on it.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s funny.

TJ Dillashaw:                 He’s got the whole camp planned out, my whole, just continuing to grow. Obviously, it’ll vary depending on my recovery.

Joe Rogan:                    Now with this ESPN deal, I know they’re planning on some pretty big events, right?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe Rogan:                    Have they talked to you about fighting on ESPN?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Not yet, mm-hmm (negative), no. I mean, obviously, being a champ, you want to be pay-per-view though.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, that’s where the kis-ash is at.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s what it comes down to. You actually, you’re betting on yourself. When you fight live TV, you get a lot of viewers, you build your name, but when you have these pay-per-views, you’re betting on that people want to watch you because you’re you. I’ve just continued to fight my fucking ass off and go ham. This is going to be my style, I’m always going to go pedal to the metal when I fight looking for knockouts because that’s my entertain … That’s how I’m entertaining.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Like yeah, sure, I’ll maybe talk confidence and talk trash that, “I’m going to fuck you up,” but I’m not going to go out and be the Kolby’s. I’m not going to go crazy, like this is my personality. I want to be able to … I mean, it’s fun, it’s awesome, we like those guys but I want to be able to look back on my career and like show my kid, like, “Look, that’s who I was.” Like, “I fucking stayed myself, I stayed my true color. I’m an open fucking book. I tell …” Whatever it is.

Joe Rogan:                    Right right.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I want it to be like the Chocolate Al days. You step out there and fucking knock someone out you get love for it. Like the real kind of gladiator shit.

Joe Rogan:                    Well, it’s really kind of building for you now. I mean, there was a lot of negative energy that was coming your way when you left Alpha Male and when you were on The Ultimate Fighter, there was some negative shit that was coming your way.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    It seems like with every victory, like all that stuff’s going behind you, and now it’s really obvious you made the right choice. Now, knocking Cody out twice in a row.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah. I didn’t want to do The Ultimate Fighter. They asked me, it was like, “Hey …” I was like, “I want my fucking title fight.” Like, I’ve been needing it for a while, I’ve been begging for it, and then obviously, they’re going to give me Cody but like, “Hey, we want you to coach The Ultimate Fighter first.” I was like, “Fuck, of course. I got to go coach against Alpha Male.” It’s like the last thing I want to do. I knew all this shit was going to be fucking crazy, and so I didn’t want to do it but I wasn’t going to say no, because that’s my shot at the title.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I’m fucking so glad I did it because I got to show my true colors. I got to show how much I care about the sport, how much I get to be a martial artist. Teach the way that me and Duane kind of do things, very professional. Let them be fucking assholes and then come around and have it bite them in the ass. It worked out perfect for me, because we got to show what really is what. Like-

Duane Ludwig:             Sorry.

TJ Dillashaw:                 No, go for it.

Duane Ludwig:             It was a good opportunity to showcase how to handle those situations.

TJ Dillashaw:                 You get to be your own judge. The more evidence you have in front of you, you get to be your own judge of what actually happened, rather than you rely on Cody running their fucking mouth of me leaving, me being a traitor, me doing this, me taking PEDs, compared to what’s actually going down. You know what I mean? Like you get to be the judge yourself on who I am, so the more you get to know … That’s why I show, the more you get to find out about me, the more you get to know me.

Duane Ludwig:             Did you and Cody talk after the fight at all?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Mm-hmm (negative), no. I mean, I show respect to him. Like, I never had a problem with Cody when were at Alpha Male ever. Like I felt like, I kind of feel bad for the guy because this wasn’t any of his drama. Like he was coming to the team when I was kind of on my way out. He just started, I was holding mitts for them, he just got in the UFC because we didn’t have a coach because Duane left, so I’m running the kickboxing classes.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Duane left, I’m the only one left there to coach practices, so I’m holding mitts for them and stuff like that. Then I get the ultimatum and I leave. Then he becomes champ and now it’s like all this pressure from Urijah, and team Alpha Male to talk shit and us be the rivals of him was weight on his shoulders. I mean, that fucking sucks. I mean, I feel like that’s a big flag to have to carry, rather than just carry your own flag.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Care what you care about, carry your own fucking flag instead of like, “Damn, I got all my team that are on my back,” like that’s a lot of pressure.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah. I think for him, like he really felt like that team and that family environment is what he needed. That really, he said Alpha Male saved his life. It meant a lot to him.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah. He should have just thought that, “Martial arts saved your life.” You know what I mean? Like yeah, the team, it’s awesome having a team. It’s having, like even like we have a team now. I say be individualized, but it’s really good to have a team because you guys are going through the same shit together. It’s good to have friends that are doing the same shit. Like I can’t only have average Joe friends, because they don’t know what it is to be me. They don’t know what shit I have to do to be the World Champion, so it’s good to have those guys around you.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Really, you got to know that martial arts is what’s going to steer you in the right direction. If I wouldn’t have had wrestling, if I wouldn’t have went to college with wrestling, I would have have fucking fucked shit up. I just had that personality. Like I’m really glad that wrestling kept me grounded, and then getting into martial arts. I’m a very addictive person. I mean, who knows what I’d be addicted to if it wasn’t martial arts.

Joe Rogan:                    I’m exactly the same way.

TJ Dillashaw:                 At least I found the right things to be addicted to.

Joe Rogan:                    I think that’s important for so many kids. I think there’s so many young kids that are growing up and they have all this angst and they just, their bodies are anxious and they’re filled with fucking testosterone.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Testosterone.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, the kids want to break things. I think if you could focus that into wrestling or …

TJ Dillashaw:                 Instead of giving them Ritalin, let them wrestle.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah, just any kind of martial arts, Jiu-Jitsu, something. It’s just so good for their self-esteem and for, just relieving that excess energy allows them to see more clearly, think things through better. It’s just so good for them, and unfortunately, you’re seeing less and less of that with people today. There’s less and less martial arts in people’s lives.

Duane Ludwig:             That’s why I make a bunch of free videos and just lead by example. Like you asked me if I still train. Hell yes, I love this. Again, a bunch of free videos and seminars, yeah, it’s fun.

TJ Dillashaw:                 You can find martial … Like it’s easier to access martial arts right now. Like Duane’s online academy, for instance. You can get technique 24-7. Go do it in your garage with your buddy, go get a punching bag, right?

Duane Ludwig:             Yup, yup.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Learn Jiu-Jitsu online. Like I’m starting … Even the physical fitness part of training, like I’m starting my own academy as well online. I’m going to teach not only the techniques behind it, but how I get stronger at doing them, how I get in better shape. Like the physical fitness part of it as well too.

Joe Rogan:                    When is that going to be available?

TJ Dillashaw:                 Probably less than a month, hopefully.

Joe Rogan:                    Beautiful. Let me know. I’ll tweet that and let people know.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, I’m working on it, yeah. Hell yeah, man, yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Beautiful.

TJ Dillashaw:                 You can get more information on it now just on TJDillashaw.com. Yeah, I’m going to start an online kind of … I’m actually, meeting Duane not only coached me in the technique of martial arts, but the ways he’s organized everything. How he’s learned from Boss how to organize, how to create a system. I’ve kind of done the same thing. I’ve not only with just the technique, but the lifestyle, so I’m kind of running with that. I’m running with that and I want to show …

TJ Dillashaw:                 Because eventually, I’m not going to hold back and have any secrets. I’m going to tell everyone everything, and I want to start a Champ Camp. I want to do like a very exclusive Champ Camp where it’s like only 10 people can come, and you come and stay with me, live at my house in Colorado, go wakeboarding, but then also learn like the mental aspect of how I think to be a champion, how I eat, the techniques, take them to Duane’s gym.

Duane Ludwig:             Do some drills.

Joe Rogan:                    That’s a great [crosstalk 02:21:32] people.

TJ Dillashaw:                 I want to, because like …

Duane Ludwig:             That’s what we need to do is lead by example, right? Help out people and …

TJ Dillashaw:                 Because then I can really feel like I can like let loose. I can like tell you everything to where like, I don’t want to tell everyone everything because I’m giving away my secrets. That’s who I am, that’s why I’m the best in the world, but I love to teach and I love to do it and I feel like by giving them small, like small groups, and giving them some intimate time doing a real Champ Camp, is something I want to do as well. I want to start creating, I want to create some places where we can have some fun too. Because I think fighting, you got to have fun in this thing. Like you were talking to Donald Cerrone not too long ago and that guy has to have fun.

Joe Rogan:                    Yeah.

TJ Dillashaw:                 If he’s too much into the, like the professional zone, just fighting, then he’s going to fall apart, so I want to teach you that I do that shit. My recovery is serious, like my nutrition’s serious. Like teach you how I … Everything, no secrets.

Joe Rogan:                    Beautiful.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    Listen man, this sport is exploding and one of the reasons why it’s exploding is the guys at the very top like you that are constantly innovating and keeping an open mind and constantly improving, so you’re a big part of the whole growth thing, man.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you.

Joe Rogan:                    It’s awesome, it’s awesome to see.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Sir.

Joe Rogan:                    Congratulations to you sir. Congratulations to both of you.

Duane Ludwig:             Thanks for having me, thank you, sir.

Joe Rogan:                    Mr. Master Splitter.

Duane Ludwig:             Aous!

Joe Rogan:                    You guys are awesome, man. I’m a big fan of both of you. Keep kicking ass.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Thank you, sir. Always.

Joe Rogan:                    Please tell people where your academy is in Colorado, Armada.

Duane Ludwig:             Westminster, 100th and Wadsworth. We have a Super Seminar coming up with Sensei Bas Rutten and Trevor Wittman and TJ Dillashaw, October 27th. Then we got the Killashaw MMA series coming out as well.

Joe Rogan:                    Your website is?

Duane Ludwig:             BangMuayThai.com.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Hell, yeah.

Joe Rogan:                    TJ Dillashaw on Instagram, Twitter, everything.

TJ Dillashaw:                 It all is just TJ Dillashaw, no nicknames, no nothing.

Joe Rogan:                    Beautiful.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Heck yeah, man.

Joe Rogan:                    Thank you, gentlemen.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Stay the course.

Joe Rogan:                    It was awesome.

Duane Ludwig:             Bye, Mr. Rogan.

TJ Dillashaw:                 Damn, that was great.

PART 5 OF 5 ENDS [02:23:21]